Other/Mixed Strength Aerobics vs "Iron wolf burpees" vs "standard aerobic training"

[Anders]

-I need more aerobic conditioning, but am a little strapped for time and would like some sort of "one stop shop" for strength, endurance and aerobic conditioning. Would either of these fit that?

1) How much strapped are you on time ?

2) What have you achieved so far ? Have you achieved timeless simple ?

***
According to the health system here in Norway more is always better in terms of training up until a very high amount of training time which starts to become unhealthy. The health system in Norway recommend 150 minutes or more with high intensity training or 300 minutes or more with moderate intensity.

**
Your challenge could be two things:

1) You are not training enough (in terms of minutes and hours).

2) You are training enough in minutes and hours, but you are not doing the right exercises in terms of your goals.



You want to achieve a little bit of everything, but you do not have a lot of time. This will always be a problem. If you have not already achieved simple, I would do that first. After that I guess you could try to go for solid (which I have not done myself) or maybe try Q&D.

Personally I find that being relatively strong by using kettlebells will automatically improve your endurance and and aerobic conditioning.

Finally I would highly recommend an active lifestyle. If you bicycle to work or with your kids, and hike mountains with your friends or a wife you will improve aerobic fitness without spending more time "training".

My last advice, since you are strapped on time, is to make training easy accessible. Have training equipment at home. Do things that you think are fun. Don't be dependent on a gym or good weather for you to go through with your training.

 

[Deleted 20758]

Correct, after 8-12 weeks of 3 x LISS, you then switch to 2 x LISS (one longer than the other), and 1 x tempo or higher (cycling varipus intervals, probably various tempo variations e.g. 2 x 10, 2 x 15, 1 x 20, 2 x 20 etc; then various V02 0ace intervals)

Also, if you ever get either your strength or endurance to where you want it (say it's lower priority than the other attribute), then switch to 2x weekly for maintenance, and do the other 4x.

Im not like most. I run 3x30min a week and every run is with 10min tempo run. Not optimal, but works great.

I also train 3x30 min BW training.

 

[Dayz]

Im not like most. I run 3x30min a week and every run is with 10min tempo run. Not optimal, but works great.

I also train 3x30 min BW training.

If someone was going to do just 30 minutes per day 6x per week, that's pretty close to an optimal set up, IMHO, for a balance of cardio and strength.

 

[Deleted 20758]

If someone was going to do just 30 minutes per day 6x per week, that's pretty close to an optimal set up, IMHO, for a balance of cardio and strength.

Thanks.

 

[bluejeff]

1) How much strapped are you on time ?

2) What have you achieved so far ? Have you achieved timeless simple ?

1) I typically spend somewhere between 8-10 hours a week training, between strength, mobility, stretching, etc. When school gets busier, that drops a lot, and I might only have like an hour total for five days a week, unless I want to train tired, which I don't. The issue here is more that I don't have an extra 30-60 minutes, five days a week, to go jogging or whatever.

2) I have absolutely zero desire to acheive simple. I've tried swings and getups, and while it felt like good exercise, it does not align with my overall goals. It also was not interesting enough for me, personally, and just tired me out for the stuff I enjoy.

My last advice, since you are strapped on time, is to make training easy accessible. Have training equipment at home. Do things that you think are fun. Don't be dependent on a gym or good weather for you to go through with your training.

I have a barbell rack with pullup and dip attachments, and 300lbs in my living room

Gaining strength isn't the issue for me. I've been happy with strength gains. My lacking areas include some kind of aerobic conditioning, thus the thread.

Given that the aerobic system is sometimes viewed as the "recovery system" (I forget which post referenced that, apologies) I might also experiment with something in the format of Q&D, or HIRT for hypertrophy (which I had great success with in the past).

 

[bluejeff]

I tried something out today. Copied from my log:

Circuit/Iron Wolf style burpee experiment:
Five rounds:
pike pushup x 3, jog 10 steps, pullup x1, jog 10 steps, PPP x 2, jog 10 steps, lunges 2/2
Five rounds:
pike pushup x 2, jog 10 steps, pullup x1, jog 10 steps, standard pushups x 2, jog 10 steps, lunges 2/2

Only took like 12 minutes but it was a good sweat. I think I can see how you can build crazy volume and endurance doing this. My breathing was definitely not the limiting factor. I more just wanted to see how it felt and not go too crazy the first time I tried it.

Felt pretty good. Not super hard, but I can tell I'm not used to continuous motion training because my mind was starting to be like "when are we taking a break?" I think with some adjustments and time I could do longer sessions like this. Will have to see if/how well it keeps my interest/attention, though.

 

[Ryan T]

I would suggest sessions 45-60+ min 3x per week. Keep your heart rate somewhere in zone 2 and punch the clock. It takes to time to build and aerobic base. Adaptations typically do not accrue as fast as muscle or strength gains.

 

[Steve Freides]

If that's all you need, then that's great.

But the overall level of conditioning that would result from just that would be pretty low to low-mod on the spectrum. But if that's all you need/ want then that's good.

Though I believe you've mentioned you walk quite long distances, relatively vigorously quite often, so I wouldn't discount that

The goal for me is to be healthy, move well, and get stronger. I don’t walk vigorously, I just walk, and 3-4 miles is about the most I do in a day and only rarely, mostly 2-3 miles per day over several short walks.

I get that there are goals that require more endurance work than I do, but I don’t think more endurance work would do anything for me except take away from my other training.

-S-

 

[paules]

I recommend @Justin_M Novocaine training template:

All-Around Training for the Tactical Athlete | StrongFirst

In the movie “Remember the Titans,” Coach Boone is the new head football coach of the first integrated school in Virginia. The school staff and parents immediately begin criticizing him. As they are preparing to leave for pre-season camp, Boone is carrying his playbook—a very thin portfolio of...

www.strongfirst.com

I haven't followed the template exactly as written but fairly close. My 'strength' sessions are strength aerobics based but typically using my 3RM or 5RM bell rather than the 10RM recommended in the original article. Three LISS sessions, two tempo and one interval session per week if you can fit them in.

 

[Kev]

Give the wolf 6 months. I was only doing 2 of his sessions between kettlebell sessions. Maybe 3 or 4 if I was stuck in work and was doing his sessions in the work kitchen as everyone slept. Wee Bluetooth speaker hooked up to my iTunes and a gym boss timer. It won’t be time wasted and trust me, his workouts become quite “all consuming”. I stopped having beer of an evening and really tidied up my diet because I just needed to get better. It’s worth mentioning that my go to workout was netting me 500 push-ups in under 30 minutes but that was me only doing HALF the sets. I never got 200 sets. I think 180 in a start stop fashion was my best after the initial 100. As for Navy Seals, I will get 500 of those suckers. I was going into “The shoulder smoker” today for my first session with a plan to do Mr Neuperts “MKM” complexes up until September before settling into autumn/winter/spring of “The Giant” but now all this talk has me thinking I might go to Rep city.

 

[pet']

Hello @Kev

Overall, did you notice some changes in strength or body composition for instance ?

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kev]

Hello @Kev

Overall, did you notice some changes in strength or body composition for instance ?

Kind regards,

Pet'

My whole midsection tightened up. Changes in my chest and arms. I became more agile. My wind definitely improved. I wasn’t really doing any cardio other than walking and kb work. I’ve took up running since so it would be interesting to see if getting back into it improves my running and vice versa. I’m not in a quandary as to whether I would do another 6 months of it because I thoroughly enjoyed every session. I think I stopped because I took up The Giant and if memory serves I was managing 2 sessions between Giant days. I’ve never felt like more of an utter bad a#@ doing his sessions though. Lol but that’s not quantifiable.

 

[Brett Jones]

I have two products coming up on Iron Cardio (the progressions and variations I have made from the original Strength Aerobics program/article)—a video just filmed this past weekend to be released soon and an e-book coming up soon.

You can see a lot of examples of this on my instagram: @brettjonessfg

Zone 2 aerobic training (walking, cycling, etc.) can/should still be part of a complete program—IMO.

Iron Cardio fits within this definition of general endurance from this article by Pavel:
What is "Work Capacity"? [Part I] | StrongFirst
You might ask, is there such a thing as “general work capacity” that covers all of the above? Yes, but it has a different name. The term accepted by Soviet sports scientists decades ago is “general endurance.”

In Russian sports science and coaching practice, every quality is subdivided into general and special. “General” refers to “…the ability… to perform any physical work more or less successfully.” (Ozolin, 2006) “Special” is the same thing as “sport-specific.”

“General endurance is the ability to perform for an extended period of time any work involving many muscle groups and placing high demands on the cardiovascular, respiratory, and central nervous systems.” (Ozolin, 2006)

And the peripheral adaptations Pavel referred to recently in the newsletter—Does A&A qualify as "cardio"?

 

[bluejeff]

@Brett Jones thank you. I have been following your training on IG for a while; it’s very intriguing and I’m interested in the upcoming material for sure.

I’ll continue to try out a few different things and see if I can mash in some LISS somehow….

 

[pet']

Hello @bluejeff

About what will follow, some here may disagree but...
As long as you get your LISS in, if you do not have a specific goal in mind (a running race, a rowing race, etc...) there is nothing wrong in changing the modality you are using. Your goal is the cardio vascular work, not the skill per se. Training that way will still get your HR in the right zone, but you'll work your "local muscles" (arms, legs, ...) differently. It will make you more "resilient" and may prevent overuse injury. Plus, if you are not attached to a specific modality, it will bring variety and prevent boredom.

In the boxing gym, there is a guy who competed at national level. He's always trained that way (mix of running and cycling) without real programming. He is 50yo now, but he was 30 yo when he competed. His conditioning level has not changed in 20 years...

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[wespom9]

I'm pretty interested in the next newsletter on the "does A+A count as cardio". I used to be convinced A+A style was "enough", now I am convinced no style of lifting is a perfect substitute for the type of physiological adaptation pure cardiovascular activity gives to the body.

My impossible study: long term training, 3 groups
A) predominantly traditional cardio done well; loose, dynamic, etc
B) predominantly power/ballistic training (or something that involves alternating tension and relaxation in the muscles, w/ active recovery
C) predominantly grinds with rest in between (far end of the continuum of tension

would love to look at many factors, but top of the list would be specific heart muscle adaptation, resting BP, resting HR, and some sort of arterial measure and other markers of longevity or ASCVD health

 

[Anna C]

As long as you get your LISS in, if you do not have a specific goal in mind (a running race, a rowing race, etc...) there is nothing wrong in changing the modality you are using. Your goal is the cardio vascular work, not the skill per se.

Great point, @pet'

I think you're right, but I wonder if there are any studies on this.... if anyone has shown that there's more or less benefit to staying with one LISS activity vs. a variety of different ones, if health and general fitness is the goal, and not performance in those activities.

 

[watchnerd]

I'm pretty interested in the next newsletter on the "does A+A count as cardio". I used to be convinced A+A style was "enough", now I am convinced no style of lifting is a perfect substitute for the type of physiological adaptation pure cardiovascular activity gives to the body.

As a quirky aside:

At the extreme level, some endurance athletes engage in enough doping that it increases their hemoglobin and hematocrit to levels that increase their risk of stroke, especially if they *don't* invoke the extreme cardio demand.

Basically, they have super syrupy blood.

So if they want to take a training rest, they have to actually get their hematocrit down to more normal levels first.

 

[ali]

I get that there are goals that require more endurance work than I do, but I don’t think more endurance work would do anything for me except take away from my other training

Wise words.
You have to find a compromise if you are short of time, right? And where it fits to your goals.

So for cardio....no time or can't be arsed or too boring....HIIT fits in there. The many variants of it and that includes S&S, Q&D other otm swings, snatches etc. So within the broad church of HIIT there are options. The question then is minimal dose and we know that is murky...for health or performance, training state history etc.
And then there is a fight about what is optimal...and bias towards steady state endurance v intervals.

So lots of yeah but no buts....

Here you want the most time efficient way to gain some aerobic function in a generalist, minimalist mindset. S&S fits the bill but you don't like it so maybe Q&D or.....

A finisher. Not a 5 minute set of non burpee push ups with the dishonour of jumping jacks bringing forth images of childhood torture in PE class but maximum heart rate, total intensity to near exhaustion. 2 times a week. It takes somewhere between 1 minute and 90 seconds probably....a 400 m sprint.

All out. Yes there is risk....cardiac arrest and hamstring pulls aside...but you know no such thing as a free lunch. You will improve aerobic function. It may not be sustainable but you've set the limit of time.

Very short, very intense, zone 5....turn the volume up to 11...has its place.

Do your strength thing and then go and sprint 400m full on, fast as you can. That's it.

You will get a dump of hgh to boot, empty glycogen stores and set up an hormonal cascade which may be beneficial. Or maybe it won't.

Try it. Perhaps not at 100% at first but it needs to be high.

2 x week. At most 3 minutes.

This kind of thing is not SF but, to restate, you are compromising here.

On the other hand, it is not a compromise at all....there are benefits too!

Former no 1 tennis player Andy Murray chucks in some 400s at the end of training. Sends a very powerful stimulus. He is an elite athlete obviously and has built a large aerobic base over the years....as far as I know, he doesn't do marathons.

To restate: S&S is an athlete builder. You should do that, it fits your goal. Or similar anyway. Chuck in some easy aerobic zone 2 of your choosing.

If absolutely short of time, go for a blast at max for about a minute once or a couple times a week.

 

[pet']

Hello @Anna C

If I remember well TFTUA - to be checked then - it is mentioned that a slight dose of variety, which in the book is called cross training, improves the performance in the specific activity.

Indeed, specific muscles have a relative rest but the cardio vascular system is still trained. Plus, it gives to the trainee some sort of 'mental pause'

@wespom9
It is not a study, but my own experience...so take it with a pinch of salt !

When I only trained S&S on a daily basis, my RHR was about 63-65. Then I more or less dropped it after Simple, to focus on running (mostly LISS, on an almost daily basis). In a few months, my RHR dropped to 50-51.

I do not think that one is 'better' than the other or that one can 'replace' the other. Both are necessary and may have different goals.

On TFTUA, it is mentioned that a strong aerobic base is mandatory to really reap all the benefits from any kind of interval training. Otherwise, one may get an aerobic deficiency syndrome

Kind regards,

Pet'