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Old Forum Strength Insight ...

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Al Ciampa

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It's obvious, but heavy-er weights make heavy weights seem light.

I never thought about this, but I have always intuitively warmed up for any snatch test with either heavier snatches or swings.  Most people, when they see this, say something like, "you're gonna smoke yourself before the event even begins".  But I knew better. It made my working load lighter.

Well, now, I have been playing with my new 56kg for the get ups, and guess what?  The 48 is ridiculously light.  Or, I got stronger in the seconds between attempts(?).

So, I finally traveled to another facility to swing the 203/92:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFyPUyKipSo

And guess what?  After several sets of 5, the 48 felt like a 24 - honestly.  I'm thinking this over, and might try to do some "neural preload" work before sets of easy strength-style DLs, as well as some other lifts here and there.

Obviously I am not instantaneously stronger, but some affect on the nervous tissue must be lending to higher force production.

Thanks for watching.  Thoughts?

-Al
 
Completely agree. I've set my max pull up after working up to a heavy weighted single. My body seems to just fly up to the bar. I was doing 1A swings today, I did one set each side with the 40kg, right when I went back to the 32 it started FLYING. Great method.
 
Yes noticed this when I got the 32kg and swung it then the 24kg felt like the 16kg use to feel.
 
Thoughts? I agree completely. I’ve found this to be most pronounced with TGUs — going down 8kg on a TGU can make heavy weights seem incredibly light.
 
Impressive form with such a heavy bell Al. Would you attribute this to your work with the 48kg kettlebell or your dead lifting?

I've noted something similar myself. I haven't done much pressing of late due to a shoulder injury and after doing some heavy one arm swings felt that the 36kg bell felt real light and so tried to press it and it flew up. I'd previously only gone as heavy as a 28. I was thinking of trying to incorporate this into a programme in an effort to improve pressing strength to try and achieve the half body weight press.

I believe Chad Waterbury has spoken about this in the past and refers to it as 'post activation potentiation'.

 

Thanks for the information Al, I'm really enjoying your posts of late.
 
By the way Al, any thoughts on very heavy (>48kg) swings if you are incorporating them into your programming? I've been curious since Contreras/Shank wrote those articles a while back extolling the virtues of them, but I haven't heard anyone really follow up on it.

 
 
" Any thoughts? " - very impressive.  That is one massive KB.

My own similar personal experience which I find quite interesting.  At the moment I am mixing some strength training with kayaking.  One day a week I will have a normal (ie. no kettlebell) deadlift day, heavish (though partial due to rehab necessities) and heavy pullups.  IF I do the training in the early morning, then go for a kayak about 5 hours later for an hour, I still am strong in the water paddling.  AND vice versa - sort of - if I kayak quite early then hit the gym about 4 hours later - I am say 10kgs stronger on a max for singles (deads) and chins about 2-5kgs stronger on a max.  The kayak then gym however does fatigue me a little, so the effect is only good for a single.

So that is surprising to me.  And it's interesting also that the next day - fatigue is much more noticeable (my point here is that the kayaking, while back intensive and seems to give some strength despite me expecting it to be fatiguing, but this only lasts maybe 12hours).
 
Thanks to everyone for adding to the discussion.

Neil ... I would attribute this simply to the sheer volume of swings that I have performed in the last several years - perfect practice sets of 5, 10, and 15.

DJ put out the 10,000 swings in a month program, but I am not convinced of the affects of that program on tightening up swing technique in some people ... hanging on to finish the program is not the same as practicing, and I think that this is likely what a lot of people did.

I just emailed someone the other day about swings and get ups ... when Pavel came out with S&S, I already had the simple goals.  Why?  My personal freestyle form of training never strays far from lots of swings and get ups, and I think this point is lost in a lot of KB programming.  When I was prepping for the SFG, I just added another bell for a few sessions - literally.

Back on point: heavy swings and get ups make EVERYTHING ELSE easy, at least in my experience. Although I enjoy other movements, I find that I don't have to practice them often at all.

Matt ...interesting that LSD work can provide a similar affect ... never thought about that.
 
Al, just yesterday I did 10 single clean and jerks with 2x32k on the minute for 10 minutes before my 2x24k long cycle practice, and when I grabbed the 24's, they felt like toys.  Good insight!
 
same experience here - there must be a neural effect, it cant all be mental - we use to do it all the time with the powerlifts, using heavy negatives to get use to handling heavier weight and I currently do it with field sports running a few hill sprints before the event and when I get on the flat surface I feel like im exploding out of my cleats.  there's no science behind my next comment but I wonder if the motor unit activation that takes place when you swing the heavier load gets your motor units on the ready for this demand and when you take on the lighter load you're muscles heightened awareness makes the lighter bell feel like child's play.
 
Matt, I am stronger in the afternoon than I am in the morning regardless of what else I do that day, though I must say that I usually don't train in the morning, so perhaps I am just not used to it.  Have you tried AM vs. PM training without the kayaking?  Do you find any difference in your performance without the kayaking?
 
Al, very true—as long as heavi-er is not too heavy.  110-120% maximum, according to Soviet weightlifting experience.
 
Hi ctuozzolo (sorry for calling you this and not your real name) - you make a really good observation and I hesitated writing my post for that reason.  I haven't trained late in the day to answer confidently, but the times I have trained later in the morning (pre-lunch rather than pre-dawn) without kayaking I have been that touch stronger.  So that is part of what I am observing.  Another factor could be that I am not training on an empty stomach, but have had a decent breakfast pre-gym.

YET the reason I posted what I did is that to me it is a little counter-intuitive despite these possible explanations.  I know it is not exactly what Al and others are referring to (yet I do agree that I have also noticed the same thing) but from a scientific point of view I was considering other examples/evidence to test the theory so to speak.  The reason for me it is counter-intuitive as I would have expected the opposite : an hour of kayaking which is shoulder, back (lower and lats), bicep/tricep, grip and core intensive.  If you'd ask if I expected my pullups to be stronger hours after that I would have said negative, and same with the deads (considering grip, lats, and overall fatigue for such a whole body movement).  Yet I haven't which made me wonder...

My guess would be perhaps the neural pathways have been tweaked from the hour of extreme-high-rep greasing the groove and so come gym, they are most efficient (wonder if my squats would be any better for example ??).  Plus my core region (the amplifier effect from breathing as Pavel describes in in Naked Warrior) is probably that bit more activated.  Seems to be a neural effect, (neural pre-load like Al said).
 
Pavel, I have been thinking about the 110-120% limit for this specific use and whether it should apply to a lot of other scenarios, like isometrics with a bar locked by rack pins so it won't move.  Should maximum isometrics be avoided?
 
Pavel ... I was going to add that the dose makes the poison.  Also, I wouldn't "dose" too often either.

Matt / ctuozzolo ... across the board, everyone seems stronger in the afternoon as opposed to the morning ...  circadian rhythm?  I don't know how this works in shift workers, or more to the point, those who's shifts are constantly changing, but it appears to sap energy (among other negative things).

Greensoup ... if you lock the bar against the pins and push very hard, how do you know it's 110-120% any longer?

All ... I was thinking again about the difference between overloading a grinding barbell lift, and overloading a swing or get up.  So, taking 110%, say, of my DL max and doing lockouts - straightforward.

But, and more so with the swing, you don't really have a "max" to calculate an overload - it's ballistic ... a heavier weight just won't move as far - so just take a heavy-er weight for you and snap against it.

The get up is more like a traditional lift, but here again, it is not like a SQ, DL, or BP ... it has much more to do with balance and coordination as to whether you make that lift or not than pulling into the groove, leading to me to think about the neural stuff going on.

My warm-up for any barbell lift is: one set of heavy-ish swings.  That's it.  Then I jump right into loads.  Like turning up the neural volume.

When I feel "off" during a session, I do one get up - it's like ... focusing that neural volume toward a task.

Others report the same.
 
Al - some interesting insights. Can I throw diet, or rather fasting and time of day into your mix, which may or may not suggest another mechanism at work. I'm not a morning person at all and generally find I'm sharper late afternoon/evening. However I did experiment with fasted training a year or so ago but not really with lifting, more for fat loss doing 400m repeat interval training and some running/strength training not unlike Pavel's roadwork. I found that I was razor sharp and more tuned in than I would have expected, fired up even. And given that I prefer training later when I trained in the morning in a fasted state I could push myself harder, do more pull ups and pistols and run with more fluidity. It seemed counter intuitive. from a evolutionary standpoint, I know you've mentioned this model of exercise in previous posts, training in a fasted state replicates the physiological environment of a hunter-gatherer that they would have been in their athletic prime hunting, all senses would be highly tuned and in turn their strength expressed fully when hungry and in need to survive. That survival mechanism is expressed by our fight or flight response, cns activation, hormonal release, thrifty genes. In short revved up, ready to go. Could it be lifting heavier weights than normal activates the same sympathetic neural response similar to the survival mechanism of the fasted state. Just a thought?
 
Hi Al Ciampa, the specifics of my question are that those maximal isometrics could never be known to be the prescribed 110%-120%.  Verkhoshansky's "Special Strength Training" uses those in some programs so I was surprised to see Pavel put a specifc limit on the max strength to apply to an overload.

Of course scientific knowledge is always moving onward.  Pavel checks the current research and SST was written  years ago.  I was wondering whether the 110-120% limit is something that current research seems to indicate as a cap on beneficial training strength.  That would be disappointing since maximal isos can be done faster than it takes to load a bar but I use them occasionally.  I hope I can find out if I simply shouldn't use them at all.
 
Alistair ... I don't know.  Like a lot of reports here, I don't feel any difference when training in a fed or fasted state; but I certainly did years and years ago when I was eating the usual fare and always "fed".

My suspicion is that it is unhealthy to be unable to train fasted - poor metabolic flexibility is good for no one ... but, training fasted all of the time is not optimal either.  As you pointed out, SNS activity is for reserve, life-threatening situations, not daily "training" sessions.  Like fasting, dose makes the poison, and I would recommend you not dose this too much.

Remember, this health thing is a moving target ... what feels good today may not feel good tomorrow, then the endocrinologist might be able to explain why :)

GreenSoup ... my comment would be: just lift; let's not get caught up in "special" strength techniques.  Once in a while, overload to your choice.  And we must be critical when applying research and the techniques of the elite to our mortal physiology.

Did it work for you?  For how long?  Did it work a second or third time?  Did you change anything else at the same time (the "shotgun approach")?

The answers to these questions may lead to: "I hope I can find out if I simply shouldn’t use them at all."
 
Green Soup, maximal isos are fine—at your sticking point or below, in the weaker range.  You will be relatively weak there and the % are fine.

Lockout isos with max weights is just an exercise in spine compression.

As a side note, most of the finest strength research was done in the 1960s-1980s.
 
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