Nutrition Strength Training -Diet Too Clean ?

[Tom Pintaric]

Hi there,
This is my first post in StrongFirst Forum. Back inthe day when I was hanging out with power lifters, they would often say that gaining strength has its limits to nutritional restrictions one puts themselves through. What that meant at the time was; If you eat too clean, you won't be able to progress further and be stronger, ie. you eat too clean. I think that gave power lifters excuses to just eat high carb meals and get heavier.
What are your thoughts on this ?

 

[Snowman]

If you eat too clean, you won't be able to progress further and be stronger

I would replace the word clean with the world little. You have to eat enough to recover from one day to the next, or at least from one week to the next (e.g. if you under-eat one day, over eat the next). You need minimum amounts of certain micro and macro nutrients. From there on, I think things start to get pretty flexible.

There are some unique considerations if someone is trying to put on muscle mass, especially if you're trying to drive well past your "genetic governor" for muscle mass. Muscle is energetically expensive to have, and most people's bodies gravitate towards a specific amount. If you want to put on more muscle, you need to "convince" your body that there is plenty of food around to feed it, and that there is a need for it. The first is done with a certain degree of excess food, the second is done with training. The excess food can just as easily be meat, vegetables, and fruit as anything else.

Once you get to the realm of the huge, it becomes quite the task to eat enough food to keep your body convinced that it can maintain/build more muscle. In order to keep the calories coming in, it often becomes necessary to turn to hyper-palatable foods, aka junk food. Keep in mind, I'm talking about the Brian Shaw, Ronnie Coleman, Donnie Thompson types.

Similarly, if you're goal is to get as big as you can, as quickly as you can, you will likely need to start eating far above and beyond what you're used to. That too, can be a time when hyper-palatable food will allow you to achieve a caloric intake that would be difficult with healthy food alone, even if it's "just" bumping from 2,500 calories/day to 4,000 calories. Hypothetically, 4,000 calories is very doable with real food, but it will be difficult if you're not used to it. Is that healthy? Of course not. Is rapid weight gain of any kind healthy? Not really, unless you just got out of a prison camp or Ranger School. Would it be a better long term strategy to eat healthy food, and just eat a few hundred extra calories per day (on most days) , allowing extra muscle to be added on gradually? Sure, but who's got time for that?

Note: All this is coming from a skinny guy...

 

[Bret S.]

I was thinking of Sumo wrestlers, eating good food and lots of it, calorie density just makes eating less of a chore, obviously the body knows not the calorie density, it only deals with what comes in the door as best it can, only the doorman can control what goes in.

 

[offwidth]

Upwards of 7,000 calories per day on a tough Tour de France stage. 'Skinny guys' as well...

 

[Tom Pintaric]

Thank you Bret and Snowman.
I'm currently in nutritional ketosis and I do recover well from training. So what you're saying is if I was to detect that recovery takes longer, upping quality calories will certainly help, especially adding more quality complex carbohydrates. I am down to 50 grams of carbs per day, the rest is 70% fats and 25% protein. Not looking to lean out so much as become less carb-dependant.
I'm interested to see at which training intensity does the body need more glycogen vs. current fat utilization for fuel.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Tom Pintaric, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

-S-

 

[Snowman]

o what you're saying is if I was to detect that recovery takes longer, upping quality calories will certainly help,

That seems to be how it works.

I'm interested to see at which training intensity does the body need more glycogen vs. current fat utilization for fuel.

It's a moving target . Definitely worth figuring out, though.

 

[Oscar]

I don't find it easy to eat more than 3000 cal of clean food. It's not easy to reach that much food of meat, veggies and fruit imo.

 

[Bret S.]

Thank you Bret and Snowman.
I'm currently in nutritional ketosis and I do recover well from training. So what you're saying is if I was to detect that recovery takes longer, upping quality calories will certainly help, especially adding more quality complex carbohydrates. I am down to 50 grams of carbs per day, the rest is 70% fats and 25% protein. Not looking to lean out so much as become less carb-dependant.
I'm interested to see at which training intensity does the body need more glycogen vs. current fat utilization for fuel.

Every body is different, you can train the body to be an efficient fat burner and become 'flex fuel'. I use IF for 16 hrs/day and mostly train in fasted state, doing this I can train fueled or not. OTOH if I don't eat enough the night before I will eat in the AM if I feel flat

 

[Snowman]

I don't find it easy to eat more than 3000 cal of clean food.

Depends on what qualifies as clean food. Bear in mind, were talking about intentional over-feeding, so let's just dispense with any pretense of health. Lots of fatty meat, some nuts or nut butters, and some veggie starch with fat added. Maybe some blended concoction involving heavy cream or coconut milk. Up to 4,000 calories would be pretty doable. If you were committed to a plant based life, plenty of starchy foods/legumes eaten with oils, nut butters, date-and-coconut milk smoothies, and dried fruit could get you there, though it might not be as easy. I mean, either way you're still forcing yourself to over eat and employing palatability strategies so you can cheat you satiety mechanisms. It's just not as bad as taking in a bunch of processed franken-food. I say that a little toungue in cheek, since nut butters and smoothies tend to be processed enough to change how the body responds to them, allowing one to eat more.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Back inthe day when I was hanging out with power lifters, they would often say that gaining strength has its limits to nutritional restrictions one puts themselves through. What that meant at the time was; If you eat too clean, you won't be able to progress further and be stronger, ie. you eat too clean. I think that gave power lifters excuses to just eat high carb meals and get heavier.
What are your thoughts on this ?

Eating Clean

Term like this have no real meaning. Thus, there's no definitive definition.

You mentioned in #5 that you on the Ketogenic Diet. The general public and many physician would not categorize that as healthy, let along clean.

I've been on the Ketogenic Diet for two and a half years. I rarely bring it up due the blow back that I get from he majority of individuals and the physicians. I am sure you have gotten some some blow back on it, as well

Marc's Post #14
High Salt Intake Is Beneficial

...provide some interesting information.

Snowman

Is Pre-Med, has some practical experience with diet and keep up with the research; providing great feed back, as well. Snowman has posted some great information on this site on diet and nutrition.

Powerlifters

The majority of Powerlifter lack knowledge on nutrition, training, etc. Like most of the individual who go to a gym, what they learn is passed down from on lifter to another. When ask the "Why" behind something, the general reply is "Because they said so". However, they never can tell you who "They" is.

As a Powerlifter, that was how I initially learned. Unfortunately, very few Powerlifter then or now know much of anything in regard to nutrition.

As Strength Coach, Alwyn Cosgrove, said, "No one ever go dummber by reading a book (research).

Unfortunately, that is too much work for the majority.

If you eat too clean, you won't be able to progress further and be stronger, ie. you eat too clean.

Gaining Weight/Gaining Muscle

Any weight gain means a gain in muscle mass, regardless of the diet.

One of the most intersting studies was "Couch Potatoes" being feed a surplus of junk food calories watching TV.

The goods news is they gained muscle mass. The bad news was that also gained an even greater percentage of body fat.

The breakdown was an approximately 20% gain in muscle mass and around an 80% gain in body fat!

High Carb Meals

This amount to high calorie, high carbohydrates and high fat. As you probably know, that combination tend to dramatically increase body fat, along with some muscle mass.

Powerlifter And Diet

The majority uneducated by choice; they chose not to learn. That applies to athletes in general.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Thank you Bret and Snowman.

These are two good sources.

I'm currently in nutritional ketosis and I do recover well from training.

Ketogenic Diet

I've been on the Kegogenic Diet for two and a half years, due to a metabolic condition. I also recovery well.

However, training on the Ketogenic Diet require some changes. Those on a Ketogenic Diet are more adapt at training in the Phosphagen and Aerobic Energy Systems.

It doesn't appear that Keto Adapted individual preforms as well in the Glycolytic Energy System.

So what you're saying is if I was to detect that recovery takes longer, upping quality calories will certainly help, especially adding more quality complex carbohydrates.

Training Recovery And Diet

As I just noted above, one of the keys to training is to is to match your training to your diet.

That mean if you are on the Ketogenic Diet and your training/sport revolves around the Glycolytic Energy System, your results will most likely be limited.

The two Energy System that are the most effective for individuals on the Ketogenic Diet are the...

Phospahgen Energy System

This system works for those on the Ketogenic Diet as well as on a Traditional Western High Carbohydrate Diet.

Work Set of 1 - 6 Repetition need to kept to under 30 Seconds, which mainly fall in Limit Strength, Power and Speed Training.

However, some great research by Dr Jonathan Oliver has demonstrated Hypertrophy Training that traditionally falls into the Glycolytic Energy System is effective in a well written and executed "Hypertrophy Cluster Set Training Protocol", another topic for another time.

Aerobic Energy System

The Ketogenic Diet appears most conducive to the Aerobic Energy System; more so that the dogma on high "Carb Loading" for endurance events.

Take Home Message

Your diet dictates which Energy System how you write and preform your Training Program.

Think of it like this. You want to use the right tool for the right job.

You can drive a nail with a crescent wrench. However, the hammer is the right tool.

My Personal Experience With Gaining Weight/Muscle

After being diagnosed with my metabolic condition, I over reacted; combining Intermittent Fasting with the Ketogenic Diet.

In 35 days, I lost 17 lbs, right at a 1/2 lb weight loss per day.

I then decided to gain some weight back. Being on the Ketogenic Diet, like you, I was limited on carbohydrate and protein intake. That left me with fats.

I purchased Oliver Oil, Avacado Oil, Liquid Coconut Oil, MCT Oil, Butter, Bacon Grease (you can find anything online), Bags of Pecans, etc to increase my caloric fat intake.

Over a couple of months, I gain back 13 lbs. Over a few more months, my weight increased another 4 pounds for a total weight gain of 17 lbs. My strength increased.

Not all of my weight gain was muscle. I also gained some body fat, as well.

With that said, most weight gain includes some body fat gains and most weight loss diets will cause some muscle loss.

I'm interested to see at which training intensity does the body need more glycogen vs. current fat utilization for fuel.

A Comprehensive Guide to Bodybuilding on the Ketogenic Diet | Ruled Me

This is article does an excellent job of addressing your question.

However, I have some minor difference with some of the information in the article based on my research and my personal experience in training on the Ketogenic Diet.

My personal experience is like Einstein said, "Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing."

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Bret S.]

That mean if you are on the Ketogenic Diet and your training/sport revolves around the Glycolytic Energy System, your results will most likely be limited.

Some people do Glycolytic training as a habit or matter of ignorance and probably have trained no other way. Then they change diet to something like keto to lose fat or something else while not changing training methods accordingly, these are the people who end up saying 'keto didn't work for me'

 

[Marc]

Calorie requirenments are highly variable among people.
Some may progress niceley on a 2500 kcal diet while others may need 4000.
Of course it is also dependent on your goals. For fat loss you obviously need to create a deficit.
As a general rule: if your goal is hypertrophy/strength gain you will always do better at maintenance calories or in a surplus. That's not to say you cannot gain strength in a caloric deficit it is just more difficult.
So, if your no. 1 priority is strength and/or muscle you will def do better at maintenance or in a surplus.
If your training is hard and you find yourself not recovering properly you might need more calories. Also, if you have to force through your sessions while not progressing you probably need more food. However that's not an excuse to raid the buffet everyday (but from time to time ). If you count your calories add 200-300/day if you don't count just eat larger portions in a reasonable way. Make sure all factors (programming, stress management, sleep etc.) are dialed in and you will probably progress again. Another important aspect is "bite": you should be able to forcefully and confidently attack your sessions.
Don't fear weight gain: as @kennycro@@aol.com pointed out even couch potatoes gained muscle in a 20/80 ratio. Now if you do it reasonably the fat gain will be a lot less. Even if you gain a little fat but more muscle your body composition will actually improve (because more muscle in relation to bodyfat).
In terms of food choice there is nothing magic about certain food groups. The most important thing are calories then macros. Hit most of your macros with healthy, nutrient rich foods. No reason not to fill up the rest of your calories with "junk food". Always look at everything within a complete context and don't overdo it.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Some people do Glycolytic training as a habit or matter of ignorance and probably have trained no other way. Then they change diet to something like keto to lose fat or something else while not changing training methods accordingly, these are the people who end up saying 'keto didn't work for me'

I Plead Ignorance

I never had thought that much about how about ho you need to match your Energy System to your Training Program or Sport. At the time I was on the Traditional Western Diet.

What opened my eyes was Curt Escobar and Trish McClain's presentation at the 2015 Albuquerque Strength and Conditioning Clinic on, “Carb Up, Carb Down? Strength Training, Body Composition, and a Most Misunderstood Marco”.

In July 2016, after being diagnosed with a metabolic condition, I began the Ketogenic Diet; research indicated it might help.

In doing so, I found that training on the Keto Diet required some changes in training, as Bret stated.

To reiterate some of the information that I have previously posted...

The Phosphasgen Energy System

Intense Training with Repetitions or Interval Sprint Training that last no longer than 30 seconds, with sweet spot being around 10 seconds, works well for Keto Adapted as well as individual on a high carbohydrate diet.

The Ketogenic Diet is effective for Limit Strength (1 Repetition Max), Power, Speed Training.

This National Strength and Conditioning article just came out, "A low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet reduces body mass without compromising performance in powerlifting and Olympic weightlifting athletes." J Strength Cond Res 32(12): 3382–3391, 2018

Dr Jonathan Oliver research on "Cluster Set Training for Hypertrophy" falls into the Phosphagen Energy System Protocol. Ironic, since Oliver's intent wasn't designed with the intent for "Ketogenic Diet Athletes".

As research data demonstrated, "Weight class athletes consuming an ad libitum LCKD decreased body mass and achieved lifting performances that were comparable with their UD, Usual Diet.".

This falls into the "Law of Unintended Consequences". A great example is that Viagra was originally designed for hypertension and now is renowned and utilized a male sex drug.

The Glycolytic Energy System

Moderate Intense Training that is approximately 30 seconds to 2.5 minutes is glucose dependent. Keto Adapted athletes don't appear to do was well as those on a high carbohydrate diet.

Some research, such as Rachael Gregory's, has indicated Keto Adapted Athletes can preform just as wells as well as individual on a high carbohydrate diet. However, I question that. It doesn't make sense.

Aerobic Energy System

The Ketogenic Diet appears to be the most conducive to this type of Training and Sport, more so that the Traditional "Carb Up" mentality.

"Keto Didn't Work For Me"

As Bret noted, when training on the Ketogenic Diet and it doesn't work, most individual blame the diet. The issue usually come down to them, not the diet.

That because it is easier to blame the diet than accept responsibility for implementing the Ketogenic Diet or Training Protocol incorrectly.

My Initial Reaction To Something That Doesn't Work

When I try something new and it does work, especially when it has worked for others is, "Where did I go wrong?"

I usually find that I didn't implement it correctly

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Bret S.]

Aerobic Energy System

The Ketogenic Diet appears to be the most conducive to this type of Training and Sport, more so that the Traditional "Carb Up" mentality.

Kenny this is interesting, my thoughts go toward the positive effects of this possibly being enhanced by a bigger, better, wider, stronger aerobic base.
When one's aerobic system is better able to do what aerobic systems do, it would seem logical that the keto adapted would enjoy more consistent benefits from the program.
I'm not sure what the practical application of the theory would be or how it could be measured in a clinical setting, I mean, how would you determine if a persons aerobic system is 'superior' to the 'usual'? And if you could do that how would you quantify it well enough to have basis for study?
Random thoughts..

 

[Tom Pintaric]

Feedback from the last week of Keto diet: After training for 5 consecutive days: S&S training to be exact: 24kg both TGU and the swing; the "bite" for the training and aggressiveness wasn't there anymore. What helped here was: Day 6. Off day with dual arm swings, sharp but lighter weight 28kg, TGUs with 10 second pause...then call it a day. Day 7- I took it off completely, steak and salad and a good night rest. Day 8 I was as sharp as ever and was able to train again. In my case, Keto is a wonderful dieting structure but due to glycolytic energy system and smaller amount of glycogen that muscled and liver are able to absorb now due to 50g of carbohydrates / day, my training will have its limits. I do feel about 10% off in comparison to previously high carb diet (regular nutrition) but non the less will continue to monitor and update status from time to time.

 

[Snowman]

If you don't mind my asking, how long have you been doing keto, and about how much protein do you eat in a day?
Edit: Also, how do you determine whether or not you're in ketosis (urine, blood, macros etc)?

 

[Tom Pintaric]

This is week 4. Blood ketones I measured were at 0.9 mM/L not very deep but that's cause I base my diet on higher protein amount...which is 150g per day for 85kg frame. What I did notice during last 4 weeks is: Sugar and carb dependency is drastically decreased...strength is slightly off due to lower glycogen supplies coming from carbs. Brain functions normally..focus I can maintain longer at work. Sleep improved. Weight is 4 pounds down but not my primary reason to cut weight but be less carb dependent.

 

[Snowman]

Gotcha. I would expect things to improve over the next month or two, then. You still have a lot of initial adaptation left to milk out before you need to worry about making adjustments, but once your body is good at maintaining ketosis, you can intentionally use excess protein to resupply glycogen (to certain extent) and remain in ketosis.
If there still seems to be an issue after another month or two, you can try to gradually bump up your protein intake (give it a week after each 10-20 gram adjustment) until you reach the point where you have trouble staying in ketosis or the problem goes away. Your ceiling for protein intake will likely get higher the longer you do keto.