Nutrition Strength Training -Diet Too Clean ?

[Bret S.]

Feedback from the last week of Keto diet: After training for 5 consecutive days: S&S training to be exact: 24kg both TGU and the swing; the "bite" for the training and aggressiveness wasn't there anymore. What helped here was: Day 6. Off day with dual arm swings, sharp but lighter weight 28kg, TGUs with 10 second pause...then call it a day. Day 7- I took it off completely, steak and salad and a good night rest. Day 8 I was as sharp as ever and was able to train again. In my case, Keto is a wonderful dieting structure but due to glycolytic energy system and smaller amount of glycogen that muscled and liver are able to absorb now due to 50g of carbohydrates / day, my training will have its limits. I do feel about 10% off in comparison to previously high carb diet (regular nutrition) but non the less will continue to monitor and update status from time to time.

Excellent work! I think going forward the principles of A+A will help you maintain and even gain strength, the program and low carb go together like peanut butter and chocolate.
Avoiding heavy glycolytic training pays dividends and with A+A you accumulate good volume with less biological costs associated.

Regarding true ketosis, @kennycro@@aol.com had alot to say on it in another thread, the basic jist of is it's difficult to be in true ketosis and difficult to determine if you actually are.
My brother lost 110 lbe on Atkins (modified). He used keto strips and they made him feel better about his program. On a recent trip he 'fell out' of ketosis, so he thinks, and kind of freaked out. My advice to him was to do IF 16 hrs/day most days, eat protein, some fat and keep carbs low.. Now he's doing great again.

The moral of the story I believe is that certain principles followed at least 80% of the time will yield results without the stress of figuring out the keto puzzle. Kenny is very knowledgeable and light years ahead of most, for guys like me close enough is good enough, following basic principles religiously gets me where I want to go without drowning in the minutia.

 

[ali]

Is a diet too clean?, was the question. The answer is keto. So is keto not clean or clean?
Clean is ill defined but I think eating clean means not eating stuff of the mass produced industrialised concoctions aisles of the supermarkets but I'm not sure.
Usually, at least on the covers of .clean eating diet books, clean means lots of fruit and veg, which start of their journey to our stomachs very unclean. Most veg are covered in dirt and by definition not clean as they need to be washed to get rid of the cow sh*t. Also very unclean ones have all sorts of pesticides to be rinsed off. But I think this is somehow what is iimplied....clean means organic, which are in fact dirty, well should be. So maybe clean means food that has been industrially cleansed and packed in such a way to protect it from environmental toxins and microbes, like in a vacuum sealed plastic wrapper or a box. So all in all a bit of a ball ache.

 

[North Coast Miller]

From my POV, eating too "clean" is another way of saying you're just not eating enough in general, irrespective of Keto or traditional or whatever. At some point you need more energy to work harder, or you need to get bigger to lift bigger.

For me, having gone on this roller coaster a few times I can feel when my training has reached the point where I need more food or should dial it back a bit as I'm just wasting effort without eating more. Other folks might wind up overtraining or stalling out, depending.

In general, eating more could be anything as long as the protein ratio stays up there relative to everything else. If you're working higher intensity then it is possible only more carbs are needed, but most of the time more means more. Initially you might not even gain weight but your loads will increase a bit almost effortlessly, followed shortly by increase in body weight. Rinse and repeat. It is difficult in my experience to drive this process from behind by simply overeating. If you increase calories notably and shortly thereafter you don't notice any difference in how easy it is to lift known weights, you probably aren't being held back by diet.

In my BB days I would add more carbs at first sign of stalling due to energy levels, then increase across the board. You can slowly methodically put on a good amount of lean mass in this manner, but have to really be paying attention.

Eating too much of anything will show up as added bodyfat. In some cases it makes sense to overload (bodybuilding or powerlifting off season) but for general health I'd question that approach. It is a lot easier to make and see changes in caloric balance and be aware of energy levels if your body comp is lean.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Kenny this is interesting, my thoughts go toward the positive effects of this possibly being enhanced by a bigger, better, wider, stronger aerobic base.When one's aerobic system is better able to do what aerobic systems do, it would seem logical that the keto adapted would enjoy more consistent benefits from the program.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

However, one of the benefits of the Ketogenic Diet is an increase in Mitochondria as well greater ATP production (compared ATP glucose production).

I'm not sure what the practical application of the theory would be or how it could be measured in a clinical setting, I mean, how would you determine if a persons aerobic system is 'superior' to the 'usual'? And if you could do that how would you quantify it well enough to have basis for study?
Random thoughts..

A University Human Performance Lab would probably provide some pre and post training and make that determination.

Snowman is better qualified to provide you with information on this than I am.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

...due to glycolytic energy system and smaller amount of glycogen that muscled and liver are able to absorb now due to 50g of carbohydrates / day, my training will have its limits.

Ketogenic Diet Training

Without knowing more information on your training, it hard to provide you with any real feed back.

It appears that you Keto Diet is on target. However, your may not be utilizing the right Energy System; following the right Ketogenic Diet Training Protocol, using the right took (Energy System) for the job.

Your statement of regarding "due to glycolytic energy" as well as "strength is slightly off due to lower glycogen supplies coming from carbs"....indicates that your training in a sub efficient energy system.

In plain English, you using a crescent to drive a nail rather than a hammer.

Ketogenic Diet Training is requires a completely different training approach to be effective.

Research has demonstrated that strength as well as muscle mass can be maintained or a Ketogenic Diet.

So, why is it working for other and not you? The simplest anwer (Occam's Razor) is you are not implementing something correctly; "Garbage in, garbage out."

The next question is, What?

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Snowman]

I'm not sure what the practical application of the theory would be or how it could be measured in a clinical setting, I mean, how would you determine if a persons aerobic system is 'superior' to the 'usual'? And if you could do that how would you quantify it well enough to have basis for study?

A University Human Performance Lab would probably provide some pre and post training and make that determination.

You can stick a funny mask/tube thing on someone's face and measure their breath while they exercise. Not only do you get to see how much oxygen they use, but by analyzing the exhaled air you can tell how much relative amounts of carbohydrate and fat they're using for fuel. It's pretty well accepted that better athletes tend to burn relatively more fat at a higher percentage of their max energy output. You could determine that someone has improved their aerobic capacity by 1) showing that they can pull more oxygen out of the air than they used to, which would indicate that they are using more oxygen at the cell, or 2) showing that they are using more fat/less carbs as fuel at a given power output.
The closest I ever got to being involved with any of that stuff was doing some VO2 max experimentation during a class in undergrad, but suffice to say you can get a lot more in depth if you want to.

I don't want to get too far off track, but this article about thru-hiking actually explains things pretty well, and in an understandable context. Useful stuff to think about when considering the interplay between diet, exercise, and metabolism.
This Is What Happens to Your Body on a Thru-Hike

 

[Bret S.]

However, one of the benefits of the Ketogenic Diet is an increase in Mitochondria as well greater ATP production (compared ATP glucose production).

I don't want to get too far off track, but this article about thru-hiking actually explains things pretty well, and in an understandable context. Useful stuff to think about when considering the interplay between diet, exercise, and metabolism

I'm thinking of the trainee assembling a strategy by taking pieces of the incomplete puzzles left to us by 'science', meaning there are many decently reliable pieces laying on the table, these can be used to our advantage if we can just forget about trying to 'build the perfect beast' and just throw a few pieces together which seem to make sense, execute the plan and observe the results.

We can start with what we want to accomplish, a goal of some sort whether it be long or short term, narrow or broad in scope etc. then look at the training/nutrition strategy we think we'll need to get there.

I think the disconnect starts with pairing training methods to nutritional strategies when they may oppose each other as @Tom Pintaric could be doing. I don't know enough to make a determination for him but I think his questions point in this direction.

There are too many variables in play to be 'sure' a given strategy will work. In the end we take in all the info and spit out the best result we can muster, looking at the GIGO computer analogy we can filter our input to ensure its soundness but that still leaves the possibility of operator error when assembling the pieces.

For me keeping it as simple as possible is the key, then I can at least practice without excess brain clutter, record results and make small adjustments as necessary along the way.

 

[North Coast Miller]

We can start with what we want to accomplish, a goal of some sort whether it be long or short term, narrow or broad in scope etc. then look at the training/nutrition strategy we think we'll need to get there.

I think the disconnect starts with pairing training methods to nutritional strategies when they may oppose each other as @Tom Pintaric could be doing. I don't know enough to make a determination for him but I think his questions point in this direction.

From my perspective I think in this case we're starting w/ a restrictive diet, it makes sense to start from there.
With a more traditional diet we could make on the fly changes a little more easily.
I've only ever seen diet cause problems in a recreational lifting program in two ways - not enough carbs to fuel prolonged intensity, or not enough balanced calories to fuel recovery.

The easy fix is to eat more for a week or two and see how you feel. If diet has been holding you back you'll feel more energetic very rapidly.
In OP case there is added complication of diet not a good match, but a closer look at rest period to working period should clear that up. I'd think you have to run fairly high intensity to really cause issues if everything else is not too far off.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

We can start with what we want to accomplish, a goal of some sort whether it be long or short term, narrow or broad in scope etc. then look at the training/nutrition strategy we think we'll need to get there.

Working Backwards

As you basically sated, you work backward from your objective/goal. The "the training/nutrition strategy" is a huge determinate factor for individual on a Ketogenic Diet.

I think the disconnect starts with pairing training methods to nutritional strategies when they may oppose each other as @Tom Pintaric could be doing. I don't know enough to make a determination for him but I think his questions point in this direction.

Ketogenic Diet Training

Training on a Ketogenic Diet requires that modifications are necessary to ensure a greater training effect is elicited.

Essentially, the Ketogenic Diet turn everything upside down. A great example is the Traditional Food Pyramid.

Based On The Information Provided

The information provided indicates he's metaphorically using a crescent wrench or perhaps a screw drive to drive a nail.

Lack of Knowledge

Very few individuals, including Nutritionist, know what formulates a Ketogenic Diet; such as the correct macro percentages and especially the need for more sodium in the diet.

The majority of individual have virtually no knowledge in how to write an effective Ketogenic Diet Training Program and perform it.

Based on what Tony has posted, it appears he has a good fundamental understanding of the Ketogeinic Diet; it just might need some small tweeks and as Snowman said he may need some more time on it to become better "Keto Adapted".

Based on what he's stated, it appears to me that the Training Protocol (as your brought up), is not matched up for Ketogenic Diet Training.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Working Backwards

As you basically sated, you work backward from your objective/goal. The "the training/nutrition strategy" is a huge determinate factor for individual on a Ketogenic Diet.



Ketogenic Diet Training

Training on a Ketogenic Diet requires that modifications are necessary to ensure a greater training effect is elicited.

Essentially, the Ketogenic Diet turn everything upside down. A great example is the Traditional Food Pyramid.

Based On The Information Provided

The information provided indicates he's metaphorically using a crescent wrench or perhaps a screw drive to drive a nail.

Lack of Knowledge

Very few individuals, including Nutritionist, know what formulates a Ketogenic Diet; such as the correct macro percentages and especially the need for more sodium in the diet.

The majority of individual have virtually no knowledge in how to write an effective Ketogenic Diet Training Program and perform it.

Based on what Tony has posted, it appears he has a good fundamental understanding of the Ketogeinic Diet; it just might need some small tweeks and as Snowman said he may need some more time on it to become better "Keto Adapted".

Based on what he's stated, it appears to me that the Training Protocol (as your brought up), is not matched up for Ketogenic Diet Training.

I have some empathy and understanding. I initially make similar mistakes.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[ali]

55 Minute Physiology — Andy Galpin, PhD

.....if you have a spare hour to fill. All about energy balance - quality/quantity.
Scroll down if you have a further 2 hours. Further exploration of energy use in the body.

 

[Steve Freides]

this article about thru-hiking actually explains things pretty well, and in an understandable context. Useful stuff to think about when considering the interplay between diet, exercise, and metabolism.
This Is What Happens to Your Body on a Thru-Hike

Very interesting reading.

-S-

 

[offwidth]

Several times in my climbing career I have spent weeks at altitude. Hauling loads, navigating steep dangerous terrain, thousands of meters of elevation gain, in cold weather, etc, etc. Proper nutrition and food in general is always at a premium. Weight of tasty food and lack of appetite at altitude being contributing factors. So basically running on vapors most of the time...

I always come back 'leaner', sometimes not in a good way either. But for the next couple of weeks you can't put enough food in front of me....