Other/Mixed Strength Versus Technique in Martial Arts

[Kozushi]

I realize that martial arts are quite various but I wonder what people who train in both martial arts and in weightlifting think about the overall relationship between strength and martial arts.

In my opinion, strength is much more important than technique as strength is necessary to make the techniques work and the techniques are much easier to learn if you already are strong.

I'm a judo guy for close to 30 years (who also did a lot of BJJ and MMA stuff over the years too, and some karate and similar) and also I did about 5 years total of Kendo and about 2 of Fencing.

What I think is that strength is technique, and the strength movements of weightlifting, especially the Strongfirst ones, are also the movements of combat. For instance, the one handed kettlebell swing is perfect pulling technique to start almost all judo throws. The press and the clean and press are both a punch. The Turkish get up is loads of things, but among them, BJJ "sweeps" (and even marksmanship according to the S&S book). The snatch is a sword cut.

 

[Bonkin]

I'm interested in where this thread goes, as I'm starting with a judo club next week. Funnily enough, when I went to observe a class two nights ago, one of the instructors said to me that they "focus on technique because all things being equal technique wins (at judo)" - he then went on say "obviously when two competitors have similar levels of technique, the stronger one will win". To me this really says they are both important, but I didn't vote in your poll, because my experience here is zero (or very near).

 

[Kozushi]

I'm interested in where this thread goes, as I'm starting with a judo club next week. Funnily enough, when I went to observe a class two nights ago, one of the instructors said to me that they "focus on technique because all things being equal technique wins (at judo)" - he then went on say "obviously when two competitors have similar levels of technique, the stronger one will win". To me this really says they are both important, but I didn't vote in your poll, because my experience here is zero (or very near).

After 30 years in judo and some competitive accomplishments in judo but also a little bit in BJJ (which is VERY similar) what I'll tell you to help you out is that strength is technique.
He is right in that mere muscle mass doesn't do enough for you as you have to use your mind to direct the muscle, but there is NOT ONE strength building exercise that is not ALSO A JUDO MOVE.

Don't do anything at all without a doctor's permission as you can terribly hurt yourself, but the one exercise that will help your judo the most is:

The one armed swing.

If you want to be a minimalist as regards strength building and judo, I'd say that this is the only exercise you need, and I think we DO IN FACT NEED IT to excel at judo.

Another way to skin this cat is to tie a rope or your judo belt to a post of some kind and tug on it as a kind of isometric or quasi-isometric exercise.

The one armed swing also imparts grip strength which is key to any judo move, including chokes and ground holds.

I suppose doing dumbbell ONE HANDED "rows" would achieve a similar effect.

If there is no equipment available, the one arm pushup (which you have to work on slowly) will strengthen up a lot of those same core "anti-twist" muscles you need for your judo pulls.

Any how, without the right kind of strength building to accompany judo, people just simply find the stuff impossible to perform and therefore get frustrated and quit. Even the original judo guys in Japan lifted weights, and most judo books have large chapters about what exercises to do.

 

[Kozushi]

I should add that for bodyweight exercises:

1. The one arm pushup is a punch.
2. The pistol (one leg squat) is a kick.

 

[Bonkin]

Thanks for your advice, Kozushi! I appreciate it very much! I don't want to derail this thread - so I'll ask questions in the Judo thread I created.

 

[offwidth]

Well.... I think the answer is 'that it depends'...
My experience is that first and foremost in any martial art, (and in pursuit of excellence in most things for that matter) is strength...Mental Strength. As far as physical strength goes it really depends on the martial art in question. Some of the less combative ones I would give the nod to technique.

But if we subscribe to 'strength as a skill' is there really any difference in the end?

 

[North Coast Miller]

I voted technique, but really it should be 'speed' or 'timing' . Depends on the MA and whether its a sport variant or training for real world application, but strength is not as important as actually landing/not being hit. When it comes to even more combat minded MA such as stick and knife the distinction becomes increasingly important to make.

Takes very little force to execute many dangerous technique.

Having added strength to apply toward endurance or extra power generation is helpful, but a strong person with poor technique still might not execute with the same force as a less strong person with better technique.

Then, folks with good speed and very good timing (awareness) don't need to be as strong or even as good in the technique dept to be extremely effective - am mostly talking about striking arts here.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

After 30 years in judo and some competitive accomplishments in judo but also a little bit in BJJ (which is VERY similar) what I'll tell you to help you out is that strength is technique.

I agree that strength is technique (or a general skill), so I assume the poll is actually strength vs. martial-art-specific-skill, and I'll reply to that.

I have never done any martial arts, so my opinion is based on years of beach volleyball. I have experience both playing (~13 years) and teaching (~3 years). I think that teaching gave me the more profound insights.

The way I see things is that not about "what is more important?", both are. I prefer to see it as "How to we layer things?". For this I refer to the FMS developmental pyramid:

The level of the athletes strength should be sufficient for the specific-skill that should be layer on top of it (sufficient strength level are higher than required by the skill). When strength level is sufficient specific-skill development should be the emphasis. The main point is to keep assessing where you are and what holds you back (aka weaknesses) and keep developing those (usually in conjugate sequence).

I'll give an example from teaching beach volleyball - the bump reception. When I started teaching I focused early on skill, and did so almost exclusively. At the bump reception (and set) it is important to get under the ball and I tried to coach that. After failing to teach a girl that worked hard and diligently I figured out that she just can't physically get under the ball, she don't have the sufficient strength to recover from the squat. Later on (after reading Movement) I discovered some people just can't do the squat pattern, so I might teach them this fundamental movement before introducing speed, timing and object manipulation...

Fast forward to two days ago...
I was hired by a group of 6 females to teach them BVB. My first session is bump reception exclusively. I did a OS resets based warm up, than taught them squatting pattern with a "door knob squat" and than took them through a bump progression. It was the fastest I've seen people learn the bump. Those who did it well had a nice deep squat and good arc on the ball. Those who did less well was the ladies I had harder time to teach to squat.

 

[berny]

I used to compete in Judo at a state level in bavaria and the 2. division in southern germany when I was a teenager and think you have to be able to at least match your oponents strength to win in a fair fight. Superior technique can even the odds and there have been plenty of guys that demonstrated that at the highest level. But increasing your strength is a lot easier than improving your skill once you are past a certain point. Not everyone has access to expert coaches and great training partner and even less people are natural talents like Hirano, Kimura or Mifune. But a lot of my old judo buddies managed to improve a lot by getting stronger. I myself have decided that figthing against guys that bench over 150kgs and squat over 200kgs after a 2 hour training session is not for me

EDIT: And there are a lot of successfull guys that don't need to lift to be strong. The german 80kg gold medalist Ole Bischof was famous for saying that he doesn't lift and focused on technique training instead. But a friend of mine told me that he could do a strict double dumbbell overhead press with well above bodyweight for 5-6 reps.

 

[Pavel Macek]

I don't use this answer a lot, but here it fits the bill perfectly: It depends.

My Chinese masters say:

If you practice only techniques and ignore strength and conditioning training, you won´t achieve anything even if you practiced your whole life.

And they also say:

“If you don't practice techniques, your martial arts training will be like a boat without oars”.

 

[the hansenator]

It seems you need both. I haven't trained in judo but I've known people whose technique looked good but had no power when striking. I've also known people who were quite strong but also had little power on the pads. Then there was one guy who had plenty of both. The amount of power he could generate was frightening. Holding the pads for him is an experience that I won't soon forget.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I used to train with a guy who went off to compete muay thai in Thailand, finished with a very good win percentage.

I recall holding mits for him your hands would start to twitch after a few minutes such was his speed and power. Reminded me of playing catch with my first baseman buddy in high school...

I also recall doing some heavy sparring with my first MA mentor (I have had not much actual schooling, a lot of basement and backyard) about the time I was heavy into freeweights - 300lb bench, 255 behind neck seated press etc.

He was about 30-40 lbs overweight and not into a regular training regimen of any sort. Not to sell him short, when he was heavy into his MA he was in very good shape and always possessed the natural brawlers attitude. I figured I'd bull rush him, put him in situations where he had to deal with my advantage in strength.

Such was his ability in timing and technique he pretty much rag-dolled me all afternoon - double palmed me through the air and into a chain link fence, picked up off the ground on a side kick, etc etc. I managed precious little contact of any quality. He barely broke a sweat.

Post sparring run down he explained it like this - "You're nearly twice as strong, isolated technique is just as good, footwork is improving. The main difference is I see clearly what's happening, what you're trying to do. You don't - you need to work on your awareness. The harder you come at me the easier you make it."

This goes back to my "Universal Truths" response - 'Perception triggers instinct'.

I'd developed an instinct, but the perception needed to make use of it was lagging far behind. I'm not so sure strength or technique is paramount, depending on the MA, though everything is important.

 

[Kozushi]

It would seem that the less "hands on' your martial art is, the less strength matters. For grappling, it's essential, for Fencing, much less critical.

 

[Peter]

I have 5 + years experience in karate. I believe that technique wins. If your technique is good then you have trained it. If you have trained it then by virtue of the reps you have put in your are stronger. Dan John says 80% of your training time should be your chosen sport.

 

[Kozushi]

I have 5 + years experience in karate. I believe that technique wins. If your technique is good then you have trained it. If you have trained it then by virtue of the reps you have put in your are stronger. Dan John says 80% of your training time should be your chosen sport.

I've noticed reading the old Karate books that hitting punching pads was a major part of training. This is obviously a lot more about strength and toughness building than anything else, as it is only one technique. It seems that this important aspect of training is often left out of modern "warriors'" Karate training, and I have to wonder how efective their striking skills would be were they in the position of actually having to hit something hard with their hands - I wonder if their hands would break.

 

[Norcoaster]

Interesting thread, lots of angles and nuances nicely covered by previous posts. In short, I believe both strentlgth and technique are important, hard to say one more than the other.

I'll add an anecdote - I fairly recently changed martial art schools/techniques, and during a grappling session (trying to escape mount) I dislocated a rib. That sucked in a major fashion, and I recommend against it, but I mention it as a scenario where my fitness and core strength were good (generated a lot of twisting force) but technique not so much (could Have been much more relaxed, and worked to side first, etc). Ah, to be a white belt again.....

 

[pet']

Hello,

I did judo for a long time, and recently, I did boxing.

In judo, I was always one of the lightest. During training, I was obliged to practice with heavier and stronger peolple. Most of the time, technique won. It was mainly based of mobility, understanding and anticipation of the opponent move and so on.

In boxing it was more or less the same. A tall person will move slower than a smaller one. But she can move the right way at the right time.

Strength can be certainly be an advantage when you compete or to make the difference between two people who have the same technical background. But on the long term, technique is, in my opinion, more efficient.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[the hansenator]

I've noticed reading the old Karate books that hitting punching pads was a major part of training. This is obviously a lot more about strength and toughness building than anything else, as it is only one technique. It seems that this important aspect of training is often left out of modern "warriors'" Karate training, and I have to wonder how efective their striking skills would be were they in the position of actually having to hit something hard with their hands - I wonder if their hands would break.

My brother told me about a hapkido class he was in. One of the brown belts punched a heavy bag and it went something like: Tap, "ouch!". It seems this person hadn't done much impact training. Her technique looked good but she wasn't able to hit.

In my own experience, I used to hurt my wrist a lot when I first got a heavy bag but after a while my wrists felt fine. I'm not sure if something became conditioned or I just learned to keep my wrist straight but I'm convinced that if you want to be good at hitting stuff you have to practice hitting stuff.

 

[Kozushi]

I got the impression reading about old Karate that hitting the makiwara (punching pads) is at least half of the art.

I used to think that the purpose of drilling techniques was to make the mind more quickly and more deftly execute the movement. Of course this is part of it, but as I got older I figured out that it's also a lot about strengthening and keeping strong all the requisite muscles for the task.

I think it also depends on the martial art. For grappling strength is super important, but for striking speed is as important, as speed generates power and the ability to catch the opponent unguarded.

After I had done S&S for 5 months and went back to judo, I was mauling everyone like a savage, trained, judo bear. I was shocked at how effective S&S training is for judo.

 

[the hansenator]

I got the impression reading about old Karate that hitting the makiwara (punching pads) is at least half of the art.

I used to think that the purpose of drilling techniques was to make the mind more quickly and more deftly execute the movement. Of course this is part of it, but as I got older I figured out that it's also a lot about strengthening and keeping strong all the requisite muscles for the task.

I think it also depends on the martial art. For grappling strength is super important, but for striking speed is as important, as speed generates power and the ability to catch the opponent unguarded.

After I had done S&S for 5 months and went back to judo, I was mauling everyone like a savage, trained, judo bear. I was shocked at how effective S&S training is for judo.

Id be interested in what @Pavel Macek has to say but I think there's a few things going into a powerful punch. Mass and acceleration and stuff.

Good technique/body-mechanics helps put your bodyweight into the punch. Constant practice trains the nervous system to execute the move quickly and efficiently. Athletic attributes like explosiveness also contributes to speed and acceleration. Impact training conditions the body and teaches subtle lessons like how to transfer power, how to not to hurt yourself and how to add that little snap as you approach the target. I think having the ability to not hurt yourself when you hit something takes the brakes off, to borrow a phrase, and allows you to put more into it.