Strengthlifting

Simply strong

Level 4 Valued Member
has anyone else seen this? I spent some time flicking through it and really like it. Just wondered what others might think...

 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Yes, I watched it live the day of the event on YouTube. I met a bunch of those guys, mostly when I was there in Wichita Falls for the SS Seminar in December.

Strengthlifting makes sense to me -- Squat, Press, Deadlift. No judges commands. Simple and strength-focused.

I would gladly compete in one if there were any close to me, but the locations/dates aren't easy for me to get to.
 

MikeTheBear

Level 7 Valued Member
Jim Wendler is also putting on a meet. Squat with a cambered bar, overhead press, trap bar deadlift. You can train a regular deadlift and do just fine on the trap bar. Most people can lift more with the trap bar than with a straight bar.

Your First Powerlifting Meet
 

Glen

Level 7 Valued Member
Personally this appeals to me as I loathe the bench.

Two things I find interesting - despite rippotoes distancing himself from crossfit the last few years this is still the 'crossfit total' - whether that's his affect on crossfit or vice versa. Either way I can see this gaining loads of popularity with crossfitters and boosting comp numbers the same way powerlifting and weightlifting has experienced a surge.

Not to sure I'm keen on the slight dip allowed on the press, very hard not to but like anything it's a slippery slope
 
Last edited:

Bill Been

Level 6 Valued Member
The Press is a far cooler lift than the bench, plus it's more interesting for spectators.

As far as Rippetoe and Crossfit, he hasn't been associated with them since 2009 or so, but yes he did help with the development with what came to be known as the "Crossfit Total". He often gives Crossfit great kudos for being the single most important driving force in the resurgence of barbell training.

"Strengthlifting" is a cooperative effort largely between Rippetoe and several Starting Strength Coaches who are more interested in and experienced as competitive lifters than is the average SSC. It's designed to both elevate the Press to its proper position of esteem and popularity by replacing the Bench with the Press, but also to eliminate the involvement of judges in the active execution of the lift in the form of the "commands" that are common in the Bench lift in Powerlifting. Additionally, deadlifting with the hands inside the legs in what Rippetoe considers an abomination called "sumo" is verboten. Another bit of PL normalcy that is rejected is the weigh-in. Drawing Rip's ire in particular is the 24-hour prior weigh-in. So Strengthlifting eliminated that whole crap show by instituting a "weigh-OUT". You get put in your weight class AFTER you lift - put down your third deadlift and walk over to the scales. I think you can take off your belt and your lifting shoes. StrongFirst enthusiasts may have to Google what those are. LOL I crack me up, lol.

As for the "dip", what is legal in StrengthLifting is what is described in "Starting Strength Basic Barbell Training" 3rd Edition in the Press chapter. Described as "Press 2.0", the downward/upward motion of the bar to initiate the press is created with hip movement, not knee movement. The knees stay locked straight and that is one of the things the judges are looking for.

One of the hallmarks of the brief history of StrengthLifting is that these meets are exceptionally well-run. They loaders and spotters are trained, the judges are minimally involved but aren't going to abide high squats, push presses, or any deadlift maladies. The events stay on schedule and are, by all accounts, extremely friendly and supportive environments.
 

MikeTheBear

Level 7 Valued Member
Not to sure I'm keen on the slight dip allowed on the press, very hard not to but like anything it's a slippery slope
I'm not too worried about it. This isn't the Olympics and I seriously doubt your average Joe will have the flexibility to do a "standing bench press" like the Russians did before the press was banned. If anyone can, I say go ahead, they deserve to win if they're willing to screw up their back.

The Olympic press is actually a really cool dynamic lift that fits in between a strict press and a push press.

upload_2019-5-17_15-9-46.jpeg
 

Glen

Level 7 Valued Member
@MikeTheBear I get what your saying but my thoughts aren't regarding the lay back but rather the bar starting at a hoovering point above, dip then press - how much space is allowed for you to be able to dip to get rebound/recoil etc.
 

MikeTheBear

Level 7 Valued Member
@MikeTheBear I get what your saying but my thoughts aren't regarding the lay back but rather the bar starting at a hoovering point above, dip then press - how much space is allowed for you to be able to dip to get rebound/recoil etc.
I think I see what you mean. So they guy at 2:54:52 "hovered" the bar slightly above his shoulders, let the bar dip to touch his upper chest, then pressed. I agree that this should not be allowed. But I'd be all for allowing the Olympic press.
 

MikeTheBear

Level 7 Valued Member
The rules allow the slight dip that the guy at 2:54:52 and other lifters used. I think it would also allow the Olympic press style. Here is the rule:

"Downward motion of the bar occurring from the start position but before upward motion, is permitted and is not a reason to disqualify an attempt."

This would be a fun meet to compete in but I think that I would not be welcome for several reasons.
 

Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
Surprised to see they don't require a dead start for the press. How come?

I think strengthlifting used to have their weigh-ins after the last deadlift. I don't know if they do it anymore. I like that idea, though I understand why some don't.
 

Simply strong

Level 4 Valued Member
Interesting... I have the exact opposite opinion. Lowering the bar I think I’m ok with but I’m not ok with an Olympic press.

My reasons...
1 the press is a very small lift so allowing the downward motion lets people press more weight. This makes it worth more in the total without it being “bad form”
2 you use the stretch reflex during a squat so why not a press?
3 the Olympic Press is crazy bad for your back. I’d like to see it not allowed so it doesn’t encourage people to train in a way that’s gonna hurt them
3b as you say most people don’t have the flexibility to do an Olympic press. But in my view it’s the same as the rediculous arch in some powerlifting bench presses. The arch is often defended using the same “most people can’t so it’s legit” argument
 

MikeTheBear

Level 7 Valued Member
As for the "dip", what is legal in StrengthLifting is what is described in "Starting Strength Basic Barbell Training" 3rd Edition in the Press chapter. Described as "Press 2.0", the downward/upward motion of the bar to initiate the press is created with hip movement, not knee movement.
Interesting that this is how he teaches the press. Based on this, I officially do not perform any of the three lifts - squat, press, deadlift - the way SS teaches.
 

MikeTheBear

Level 7 Valued Member
2 you use the stretch reflex during a squat so why not a press?
So why not allow a sumo deadlift? Many lifters can deadlift more sumo than conventional.

This is Rippetoe's deal and he can set the rules how he wants. I'm fine with that and I'm glad he started this federation not just because it brings back the press but because of the elimination of the judge's commands, which seem to be cumbersome. But if we're being honest, the rules are based on Rippetoe's preferences.
 

Sean M

Level 6 Valued Member
So why not allow a sumo deadlift? Many lifters can deadlift more sumo than conventional.

This is Rippetoe's deal and he can set the rules how he wants. I'm fine with that and I'm glad he started this federation not just because it brings back the press but because of the elimination of the judge's commands, which seem to be cumbersome. But if we're being honest, the rules are based on Rippetoe's preferences.
It is indeed largely his preference, but he/his organization has reasons:
Why (Almost) Nobody Should Pull Sumo | Kyle Mask
 

MikeTheBear

Level 7 Valued Member
It is indeed largely his preference, but he/his organization has reasons:
Why (Almost) Nobody Should Pull Sumo | Kyle Mask
I mainly stick with RDLs but on the rare occasions I DL from the floor I pull conventional so I don't have a dog in the sumo vs. conventional fight (actually I feel like even when my intent is to pull a max DL I use a clean pull since that's the movement I am most familiar with and it carries over to weightlifting). However, I am hearing two different stories from the SS camp:

Why SS uses the low-bar squat - because you can use more weight.

"But what if I can use more weight with the sumo DL?" Doesn't matter because the sumo DL gives you a leverage advantage.

Guess what: the low-bar squat, by using a lower bar position, also gives the lifter a leverage advantage.

But then there is the whole the low-bar squat (and the sumo DL) both use more muscle mass because hamstrings. Here is a quote from that article:

"The result in the sumo deadlift, as in the high bar squat, is a hamstring that has been shortened before the concentric phase of the lift has even begun, meaning a hamstring that cannot contribute optimally to the hip extension about to occur. The conventional deadlift, on the other hand, like the low bar squat, makes use of an initially elongated hamstring that better contributes to hip extension than the sumo deadlift."

I think is point about the hamstrings being left out in the sumo DL is correct. That's because a conventional set up is intended to get the posterior chain involved early in the lift whereas sumo is more "squatty." However, the whole "low-bar uses more hamstrings" is a nothing burger. Although the hamstrings contribute a little more in the low-bar squat, they do not contribute enough to make the low-bar squat a good hamstring exercise or even a "better" hamstring exercise than the high-bar squat. Why? Because biomechanics. And the fact that the squat is a quad and glute exercise. It's not a hamstring exercise and shouldn't be treated as such.

Squats are Not Hip Dominant or Knee Dominant
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
It is indeed largely his preference, but he/his organization has reasons:

Why (Almost) Nobody Should Pull Sumo | Kyle Mask
My Disclaimer

I am a Conventional Deadlift. So, like Mike The Bear states, "I don't have a dog in the sumo vs. conventional fight..."

My issue with the article and mentality is the Conventional Deadlift is better than the Sumo Deadlift.

Different Not Better

The Conventional and Sumo Deadlift are two completely different exercise. They each elicit a different training effect. Different doesn't equate to better.

A Key To Increasing Strength

One of the keys to increasing overall strength and in a specific movement is changing/varying exercises.

This is one of the covenants of the Westside Training Protocol, circa 1980.

It is also one of the Bodybuilding Tenants; attack the muscle from different angles for growth.

Research has simply document that fact.

Changes in exercises are more effective than in loading schemes to improve muscle strength. - PubMed - NCBI

Thus, training your Conventional Deadlift will help with your Sumo Deadlift and training your Sumo Deadlift will help your Conventional Deadlift.

Plagiarize Mike The Bear

If you want to be good at something, borrow someone else's ideas.

If you want to be great, steal it.

With that in mine, I am am now stealing Mike's post.

Why SS uses the low-bar squat - because you can use more weight.

"But what if I can use more weight with the sumo DL?" Doesn't matter because the sumo DL gives you a leverage advantage.

Guess what: the low-bar squat, by using a lower bar position, also gives the lifter a leverage advantage.

But then there is the whole the low-bar squat (and the sumo DL) both use more muscle mass because hamstrings.
Contradictions In Starting Strength Philosophy

As noted above, Starting Strength's advocation of the Conventional Deadlift contradicts their reasons for performing a Low Bar Squat.

Starting Strength applies a rule for the Conventional Deadlift but then disregard it for the Squat. How much sense does that make?

Kenny Croxdale
 
Last edited:

Steve W.

Level 7 Valued Member
In general, I think it's great for people to organize competitions in ways that are 1) fun, 2) meaningful and 3) make sense TO THEM.

However, to ME, banning sumo is none of those three things.
 
Last edited:

Glen

Level 7 Valued Member
@kennycro@@aol.com

All great points, maybe the reasons he disregards the sumo in favour of the conventional is its the best for that pattern. (I. E Chek, John etc give your primal patterns - squat, hinge/bend to extend, push, pull, rotate/anti-rotate, lunge, gait)

Maybe he feels the bend to extend is best served with the conventional and the squat is best served with the low bar variation.

Doesn't make sense to me but I can see his thoughts if his creating minimised program
 
Top Bottom