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Barbell Stretch reflex and deadlift

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FinlayB

Level 5 Valued Member
hello

very quick question.

I have seen a few different styles of deadlift, high hips, low hips etc. one that i came across a while back involved the person popping their hips up between each rep.so the lifter would hold the bar, straighten their legs (pop their hips up) then drop their hips and pull the bar, complete the lift and then straighten their legs again briefly for the next rep. I imagine this is for the stretch reflex in the legs.

I tried it myself a little while ago, and couldn't quite get the timing right. although it did seem to have an effect on bar speed

so, for those in the know

is this an example of dip and drive?
is there a danger of being out of a good lifting position by moving too much?
what do you think of the technique?
 
@FinlayB, there are all sorts of styles of deadlifting and all sorts of practices and theories behind those practices.

is this an example of dip and drive?
That expression is usually reserved for the pushpress and jerk. The former is dip and drive, the latter is dip, drive, dip.

is there a danger of being out of a good lifting position by moving too much?
There is danger of getting struck by lightening when walking down the street. :) If it's something that you practice carefully and often, and if it actually does good things for you, then I don't think safety is a concern.

what do you think of the technique?
I do it sometimes - I don't know why I do it, but I do, and it feels good to do. I don't do it all the time, though - I guess I'm experimenting with it, too.

For a beginning and even an intermediate deadlifter, the idea is best thought of, IMHO, as a pull - you grab the bar and you pull it off the floor. We have lots of visualizations that help bring some push to the start of our pull, however. Examples include visualizing pushing the floor away, and wedging one's self under the bar. Both of those as alternatives to simply pulling and thinking about nothing else - simply pulling tends to make the hips come up too fast.

I assume you're talking about a conventional and not a sumo pull here, btw.

Hope that's of some help to you.

-S-
 
I have seen a few different styles of deadlift, high hips, low hips etc.

Deadlift Hip Position

The Deadlift is initiated from a Quarter Squat, high hip position. The higher position places you in a stronger position.

Thus, great auxiliary exercises for the Deadlift are Quarter Squats, Front Squats, Leg Press, and Step Up on a box from a Quarter Start position.

one that i came across a while back involved the person popping their hips up between each rep.so the lifter would hold the bar, straighten their legs (pop their hips up) then drop their hips and pull the bar, complete the lift and then straighten their legs again briefly for the next rep. I imagine this is for the stretch reflex in the legs.

"Explosive-Reactive"

Yuri Verkhoshanky (the Modern Day Father of Plyometrics) identified movements that elicit the Stretch Reflex as Explosive-Reactive (Source: The Fundamentals of Special Strength)

A "Violent" dropping down into a movement is need to fully engage and optimize the Stretch Reflex.

With that said, ...

A Minor Bounce Elicits A Minor Return

A slight dipping of you hip down prior to driving the bar off the floor in the Deadlift will slightly elicit the Stretch Reflex.

Pre-Loading Deadlift Actions

1) Rolling The Bar: Lifter who roll the bar forward on the floor, then back into them prior the pulling the weight off the floor elicit a minor Stretch Reflex.

2) Bouncing Up and Down: Lifter who bounce there legs (Squatting up and down) prior to pulling the weight, elicit a minor Stretch Reflex.

3) Grip and Rip: Lifters (such as myself) who drop down, grip the bar and then pull, elicit a minor Stretch Reflex.

However, movement prior the the pull, fall more into...

"Explosive"

Verkhoshansky defined this this as generating movement prior to "Lift Off".

An example of this is a Shot Putter who employs the spins or glides prior to launching the Shot; generating force prior to "Lift Off".

While not precisely the same, prior movement before "Lift Off" in the Deadlift can be generated with this method.

Many lifters using the above protocols mentioned unknowingly do it with out realizing it.

Verkhoshansky's third method of generation force is termed as...

Isometric-Explosive

It is defined as generating force from a Dead Stop position, i.e. pulling the Deadlift with no movement prior to "Lift Off".

That means a lifter positions themselves in a partial Squat-Deadlift position, hovering over the bar performing an isometric hold, then pulls the weight.

One of the issues with this method is that many lifters maintain the Isometric Position too long, let say 20 - 30 seconds. Doing so, fatigues the muscles to some extent.

Thus, individuals who use this method need to minimize the time spent in that in Isometric Position.

I tried it myself a little while ago, and couldn't quite get the timing right. although it did seem to have an effect on bar speed

Timing

Yes, there is definitely a Timing Issue; a technique that need to be practiced and developed to "Get it right."

Grip and Rip Method

I began using this method after watch a lifter (Chad Duracell, Texas A&M University Assistant Strength Coach) blow up a 600 lb Deadlift at a meet years ago.

I initially was too aggressive in dropping down and applying too much force in pulling it. I was yanking it, which created a "Whiplash" effect.

With practice, I found how to drop down quickly, grip and pull the bar with the right amount of force and initiate the drive off the floor in the Deadlift.

"...It did seem to have an effect on bar speed.."

Exactly! Generating some force prior to "Lift Off" produces more Power off the floor.

However, some practice is required for the learning process.

so, for those in the know

is this an example of dip and drive?
is there a danger of being out of a good lifting position by moving too much?
what do you think of the technique?

An Advocate

Obviously, I am an advocate, since I use the "Grip and Rip Method."

After years of employing this method, I usually nail the grip position and maintain a great lifting position.

Every once in a while, my grip is a little off on one side which throw off my pulling position.

However, in over the course of years in using the "Grip and Rip Method", it has allowed me to maximize my Deadlift.

Kenny Croxdale
 
We have lots of visualizations that help bring some push to the start of our pull, however. Examples include visualizing pushing the floor away...

"Pushing The Floor Away"

This Deadlift Method is geared more toward Olympic Lifters. The initial "First Pull" is a Deadlift to the knee area.

The objective is maintain the back in a neutral, cocked, position which enable Olympic Lifter greater Explosive Power in the "Second Pull".

The "Leg Press" or "Push The Floor Away" is one method of training. It has it place in training. However, it is a limiting method for...

Conventional Powerlifting Deadlifts

Research by Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD Exercise Biomechanics, former Powerlifter) determined that Conventional Powerlifting Deadlifters pulling heavy load, initial the drive off the floor first with their back, then with leg drive.

The Muscle Firing Sequence for Conventional Powerlifting Conventional Deadlifter is...

Back > Legs

The back fires first followed by the legs; similar to a boxer throwing a one two punch combination.

THE DEADLIFT: A SCIENTIFIC ANALYSIS"
Nutrition & Health OnLine Magazine

"Contrary to popular opinion, the initial drive is done primarily by the back (erector spinae) and not the legs. If the athlete tries to move the weight using their legs instead of their back the result is a premature straightening of the legs and an unwanted curvature of the back."

With that in mind, let dispel some information on "Back Rounding" with the Conventional Deadlift.

Lower Back round is bad.

Upper Back Rounding is acceptable and effective in pulling more weight.

Upper Back Rounding enables Conventional Deadlifters to keep the bar/weight closer to the body's "COG", Center of Gravity. Doing so decreases the torque, which means it decrease that load.

The farther a load is from the body's "COG" the greater the torque, the greater then load/force.

Thus, one of the keys to pulling a Heavy Deadlift is keep the weight close.

A Strong Case For the Rounded Back Deadlift | T Nation

Dr Bret Contreras provide great information in this article.

Contreras' recommendation, which I advocate as well is...

Stick to submaximal training with "perfect posture."

"Stay between 60-80% of 1RM and make sure your spinal position never breaks down. Avoid taking the sets anywhere close to failure or you'll inevitably end up rounding your back."

Performing heavy Conventional Deadlift pulls should be employed infrequently in one's training.

That due to the fact that, as Dr Tom McLaughlin, "The lower back is quickly and easily over trained."

Kenny Croxdale
 
If you'd like to perform an exercise with an eccentric component and a strong stretch reflex, barbell squats are the answer.

Best thing for 97.58% of all people who deadlift to do is to set up in a consistent, repeatable, safe, anatomically correct stance with a back in rigid (slight) extension and a plan for adding load over the next few months.
 
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If you'd like to perform an exercise with an eccentric component and a strong stretch reflex, barbell squats are the answer.

The Law of Specificity

While Squat have some carry over to the Deadlift, they are not specific.

To develop the Stretch Reflex in the Deadlift the following exercise provide a greater carry over.

1) Top Down Deadlifts: Place the Deadlift Bar on the outside pins of a Power Rack. Allow the bar to accelerate in the Eccentric Part of the Deadlift; bounce the weight off the platform.

2) Hip/Back Extentension: The movement patter and muscle involvement replicates the Deadlift. Dropping down in the bottom part of this exercise and bouding out of the hole develops the Stretch Reflex.

Bill Been said:
Best thing for 97.58% of all people who deadlift to do is to set up in a consistent, repeatable, safe, anatomically correct stance with a back in rigid (slight) extension and a plan for adding load over the next few months.

Beginners and Some Intermediate Lifers

Individual who fall into this group should initiated the Deadlift from a Dead Stop to learn the technique.

Some Intermediate and Most Advance Lifters

Bouncing the weight in the Deadlift off the platform for these individuals elicits a different training effect.

Bouncing is effective for Conventional Deadlifters in training the Stretch Reflex, Increasing Power Output, and Overloading the Top Part, above the knees.

Bouncing the weight off the floor is less effective for Sumo Deadlifters.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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