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Barbell Strong First O-lifting: No Jerks?

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It's in PTTP. Paraphrasing from memory: when out on field maneuvers without access to a gym and without a lot of food, squatters often lost a lot of weight but deadlifters fared much better.

I can't find my copy of PTTP - probably lent it out and didn't get it back.

-S-
 
From ETK. Fighters, operators, and the like don't have a need for Heavier legs, so heavy pulls/hinges for adding strength without the girth, and being generally easier on the knees. No anti squat mentioned.

You can't be fighter/operator oriented and weightlifting oriented at the same time.

Leg girth / heavier legs goes hand in hand with being good at weightlifting. ;)

That's why I think it will be interesting to see how StrongFirst approaches this.
 
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I’m not sure what their stance is, but back squats are part of the SFL and Zercher squats are one of two movements taught at Barbell 201.
SFL actually covers back squat, front squat, and Zercher squat (multiple variations) along with Good Mornings. Only the back squat is tested but the material is quite comprehensive.
 
That's why I think it will be interesting to see how StrongFirst approaches this.

A lot of the culture and distinction of what StrongFirst specializes in within the strength world focuses on fighter/operator type applications -- getting strong while keeping bodyweight relatively light -- and both kettlebell and bodyweight training fit quite well in that arena.

Barbell can be limited to that (i.e. the Power to the People book, with a bit of a rail against the squat in the "Irradiation" chapter... and program focusing on deadlift and press.) But the teachings of SFL are broader than that, and include all types of squats -- Zercher, front squat, low bar back squat, and high bar back squat. Programming includes all types of cycles and programs that can be used for many applications, including powerlifting, getting big and strong, and getting a big squat. Fabio's Reload program can be used for all lifts, as can Plan Strong programs.

So I picture StrongFirst O-Lifting will be similarly broad, teaching the lifts, variations, and techniques if one wants to train in that style for whatever reason. Competition may be an end goal, but maybe not. Personally I love the training style myself, even if I don't compete (I've done 2 meets and just registered for a 3rd). But competition is certainly a bonus outcome, and good for any lifter's development, just like the TSC is good for any general strength trainee that trains in StrongFirst methods.

I think it's going to be a great fit for StrongFirst. The biggest challenge I see is that people who do kettlebell snatches, cleans, and jerks will think it's an easy switch... and, I'm here to tell you -- it's not! It's a whole new endeavor in which it takes years to gain proficiency. I'm halfway into year 3 and still working on that. But, some more gifted young athletes may pick it up faster, who knows. I actually think someone can pick it up faster if they go into it first, as opposed to coming into it from kettlebell or barbell powerlifting style training. But, will be interesting to see.
 
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So I picture StrongFirst O-Lifting will be similarly broad, teaching the lifts, variations, and techniques if one wants to train in that style for whatever reason. Competition may be an end goal, but maybe not. Personally I love the training style myself, even if I don't compete I've done 2 meets and just registered for a 3rd). But competition is certainly a bonus outcome, and good for any lifter's development, just like the TSC is good for any general strength trainee that trains in StrongFirst methods.

I tend to think of the Olympic lifting community as consisting of 3 main constituents right now:

1. Weightlifters (i.e. those practicing the sport)
2. Traditional Explosive Athletes (i.e. people like throwers or football players who practice power cleans, but don't usually go overhead)
3. Competitive Fitness Athletes (i.e. doing Olympic lifts for high reps as part of WODs, or as part of a 'lifting ladder' at fitness games)

Each one of these groups has a different objective and trains the lifts using different methodologies according to their goals.

I don't think StrongFirst needs to try to appeal to group #1, and might philosophically be in opposition to #3.

For group #2, it will be tricky to say something that hasn't already been said before over the decades, and, besides power cleans are not so trendy now, being replaced by things like hex bar jump squats.

Maybe there is a new "wellness" audience for weightlifting?
 
I think it's going to be a great fit for StrongFirst. The biggest challenge I see is that people who do kettlebell snatches, cleans, and jerks will think it's an easy switch... and, I'm here to tell you -- it's not! It's a whole new endeavor in which it takes years to gain proficiency. I'm halfway into year 3 and still working on that. But, some more gifted young athletes may pick it up faster, who knows. I actually think someone can pick it up faster if they go into it first, as opposed to coming into it from kettlebell or barbell powerlifting style training. But, will be interesting to see.

I bet you could take a bunch of kettlebellers and have them practice double KB dead stop cleans as a bridge to barbell cleans.

(I'm the example of the opposite path, having started with barbells first, and swing cleaning KBs still feels weird to me....why am I going backwards between my legs if my objective is to go "up" to rack it so I can go overhead?)
 
I tend to think of the Olympic lifting community as consisting of 3 main constituents right now:

1. Weightlifters (i.e. those practicing the sport)
2. Traditional Explosive Athletes (i.e. people like throwers or football players who practice power cleans, but don't usually go overhead)
3. Competitive Fitness Athletes (i.e. doing Olympic lifts for high reps as part of WODs, or as part of a 'lifting ladder' at fitness games)

Each one of these groups has a different objective and trains the lifts using different methodologies according to their goals.

I don't think StrongFirst needs to try to appeal to group #1, and might philosophically be in opposition to #3.

For group #2, it will be tricky to say something that hasn't already been said before over the decades, and, besides power cleans are not so trendy now, being replaced by things like hex bar jump squats.

Maybe there is a new "wellness" audience for weightlifting?

I would see the main audience, like other StrongFirst events, as either
1) any strength practitioner who wants to deepen their own knowledge and practice in a new area
2) any strength trainer who wants to add to their toolbox of things they are comfortable teaching to trainees

I know when I was working as a personal trainer here at my local Air Force base and I would say something about being a barbell instructor (post-SFL), most people would then say, "Oh, you can teach me C&J?" or power clean, or something else... I'd be like, well... no. But now I can, after the USAW course.
 
I bet you could take a bunch of kettlebellers and have them practice double KB dead stop cleans as a bridge to barbell cleans.
That would help a little bit -- but still so different, at least the way we usually do kettlebell cleans -- catching with legs straight, in lockout. Not dipping down to catch the clean.
 
That would help a little bit -- but still so different, at least the way we usually do kettlebell cleans -- catching with legs straight, in lockout. Not dipping down to catch the clean.

Errr...you don't dip to catch a KB clean?

I do! ;)

(at least if it's heavy enough)
 
Our standard for the clean:



Make him go heavier. ;)

If I want to clean a 40 kg bell in order to press or jerk overhead, I find it so much more efficient for me to clean straight up with a dip on the catch.

(yeah, I know that's not SF standard, but I care most about getting the weight up overhead)

And if you're going to teach power cleans, pulling straight up and catching on the dip will have to be learned.
 
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If I want to clean a 40 kg bell in order to press or jerk overhead, it's just so much more efficient for me to clean straight up with a dip on the catch.
For you, perhaps.

When I teach the kettlebell clean, I do so as @Anna C described and as shown in the standards video. I make it a point to emphasize not dipping on the catch and not shrugging the shoulder because hip snap is our main focus, and the loading of the posterior chain by swinging the bell back between the legs is something the kettlebell can do that the barbell can't. When I see people shrugging up a kettlebell clean, I help them learn how not to do that. And when the weight gets heavy enough to shrug and/or requires a dip to catch, I suggest switching to a barbell. The kind of cleans we teach at the SFG, usually a pair of 24's for reps for an average sized adult male, are a skill we want to teach by loading the posterior chain and generating enough umph that way.

Errr...you don't dip to catch a KB clean?
Perhaps you'd like to learn about what we do firsthand by taking a StrongFirst course or certification?

Our SFL barbell course happens to include all three of the powerlifts but, again as others have mentioned above, it includes a whole lot more.

Our bodyweight course includes the pullup, which is part of the TSC, but the big focus is on the one-armed pushup and the one-legged squat, neither of which are competition lifts anywhere I'm aware of.

Our kettlebell course teaches nothing of the sport of kettlebell lifting.

Our O-lifting course's choice of lifts, if you understand how StrongFirst goes about things, will then make sense to you.

-S-
 
For you, perhaps.

As someone who is primarily a weightlifter, that's exactly the point.

The standard practice of how one cleans a KB (swing back, don't catch in the dip) is the exact opposite of what one wants to do with a barbell power clean (pull up, catch in the dip).

Ergo, I find it easier to clean straight up, with a dip, because that's what you do with barbells and it's my default movement pattern.

Just an observation that kettlebellers learning to power clean will have to learn some movement patterns (clean up, not back, catch in the dip) that may feel 'wrong'.
 
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