Barbell Strong First O-lifting: No Jerks?
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Maybe the rode Humvees instead of chickens.Maybe @Adachi 's operators had beefy upper bodies but normal legs.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I'm not sure what you mean by understanding how StrongFirst goes about things in this context.
The choices (OHSQ, FSQ, push press, etc), then leading to pulls, muscle cleans/snatches, hang cleans/snatches,etc. seem like pretty typical choices for introductory weightlifting progressions.
What I think of in this context is this: The lifts are a means to an end.
Strongfirst principles - are taught in every course/cert:
1. Strength is the master quality.
2. Strength is a skill.
3. Yin/Yang duality of relaxation and tension.
4. Yin/Yang duality of ballistics and grinds.
5. Use of speed endurance training for development of power, different types of endurance, and promoting fat loss.
6. Safety is viewed as part of, not the opposite of, performance.
7. Reverse engineering of what the strongest do naturally.
Also, StrongFirst Action Principles taught in every course/cert:
1. Irradiation
2. Feed-Forward Tension
3. Dominata
So the lifts that are taught - in SFB, SFL, SFG - all support, and are the means to, these principles.
This doesn't make sense. The toolbox is strength, the application varied. The purpose of any of their courses seems to me to be to teach individuals another set of tools in their tool box. This isn't about being "oriented" to a single population, but expanding the toolbox of any interested person or coach. HOW that person or coach uses that to help themselves or their clients is specific to them, not to StrongFirst.You can't be fighter/operator oriented and weightlifting oriented at the same time.
Leg girth / heavier legs goes hand in hand with being good at weightlifting.
That's why I think it will be interesting to see how StrongFirst approaches this.
Years back, I had a hard time balancing training with barbells and my job. Barbells wore me out, but I felt like I needed to get stronger. Squatting (the way I was training it) made my running worse - and I need to be good at running. And chafing sucks, and oh boy... I understand his quip - I did need to get stronger, but the way I was training was counterproductive to also being able to perform my job.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
It makes complete sense. Strength is specific and has a skill component to the task. SAID is a fundamental principle.
The positions I need to be strong in as a weightlifter are not the same as a powerlifter or a strongman.
I don't know much about what kind of leg strength operators need, but I imagine being able to hold a strict front rack while front squatting is not amongst them.
While that same skill is mandatory for weightlifters and needs to have whatever training time is required to achieve it.
Operators, if the Army fitness test is anything to go by, can do a trap bar deadlift just fine and meet the needs of the job.
And thigh chafing -- bad for soldiers, but nothing more than a nuisance for a weightlifter.
I guess I'm very much in the camp of asking people if they're "training" or "exercising".
If training, then the form should follow the function.
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You didn't address what I said. StrongFirst provides tools. They even provide guidance on how to use the tools. Whether you want to get those tools, and how you want to use them, is up to you. There is no single population they are targeting. Some of those tools might be better suited for some and not others, and some methods of training might be better suited for some and not others. You as the individual or as the coach need to identify what is most appropriate and how to use it.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Okay, but everything out there provides tools for people to decide how to use.
How is that any different from any other way of learning information and using it?
I guess I don't get your point, other than saying a class can be implemented differently by the students?
But that's true for every learning method or book or cert or online course in the fitness space.
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
@j_layport One thing I'd be curious to hear StrongFirst's take on is the conditioning aspect of weightlifting competition.
Example today:
1 hour before lift time:
> T - 45 minutes before Snatch: mobility work, activation drills, empty bar work
T-45 to T-0: Snatch warmup and practice for 45 minutes straight, walking the weights up in practice, starting at 60% to 95% (opening attempt), with decreasing rest periods. By the end of that, I was doing 95% snatch singles with 1 minute rest. In total, from 60% to 95%, there were 5 sets of triples, 10 sets of doubles, 10 sets of singles, for a total of 35 snatches. And a bunch of plate loading.
Snatch Platform (had to follow myself): 95% snatch -- 1 minute rest period -- 100% snatch -- 2 minute rest period 105% snatch
After: Rest 5 minutes, drink something, eat something
Clean & Jerk warm up & practice, similar to Snatch, but this time have only 30 minutes to walk the weights up to opening attempts.
I think it might have an interesting tie-in to some of the StrongFirst work on energy system.
I'm not sure I got you right, but you did 45 reps going up to ~75kg from ~45kg? Like 1kg raises?
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
45 reps, yes (I miscalculated in the original post).
But the jumps were bigger than 1 kg until the very end.
Example:
3x45
3x45
3x45
3x50
3x50
2x55
2x55
2x58
....
1 x 70
1 x 70
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
I see, you did multiple sets with the same load.
Is this typical in weightlifting?
Back when I last did my best squat, I did about 8-10 singles as my total warm-up.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
What I did that day may have been a little more extreme than usual because it was early in the morning, cold, I had just driven an hour (so stiff), and I'm not young.
But yes, all weightlifters do a bunch of lifting before they ever touch the platform and timing that progression is part of the sport.
And you want to stay warmed up.
Here is a video from Greg Everett on how that works. In the example, they go through 12 weight progressions as they work up to the competition weight. The lower weight lifts will likely be multiples (doubles, triples).
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying then. I was understanding you to say a couple things:
1. SF's primary audience is "military/operators."
2. Pavel's recommendation 20 years ago for that group was to minimize squatting.
3. Weightlifting is heavily reliant on squatting.
4. Teaching weightlifting will cause SF to have to rethink their stance on squatting.
It sounded to me that you were saying SF couldn't teach methods that were applicable to weightlifters and to "tactical athletes" because those populations wouldn't necessarily use the same method. I would agree that they wouldn't necessarily use the same method, but I don't see a conflict in an organization teaching a specific method of training to one group to accomplish their goal, and a very different method to another group to accomplish their goal. The overarching principles (like what Anna laid out) would still be the same, but the exercises used and the method they are used in might be very different.
(Going back to the hardware store ... I need to build a chicken coop, you need to install a garbage disposal. We can go to the same store, but we're going to buy different tools. And if we did buy the same tool, we might use it for a very different purpose, while still using it "correctly." And perhaps I heavily rely on that tool, while you use it quite sparingly.)
Perhaps it is clearer what I meant and why I said it? Perhaps I am completely misunderstanding you?
Thinking more about what you typed... Perhaps you are saying something a lot simpler... are you asking if a member of the military wanted to weightlift, how would one go about doing that while also minimizing squatting to avoid any potential detriments to their job function?
It will take a bit for SF to put together a SFW manual and curriculum. Enough time to knock out the SFL and SFB.
My coach had me do a LOT less than that at my 2 meets. Working up to an opener snatch of 46 kg, I started 30 min prior to first attempt, going every 3 minutes, with:
- Loosen up
- Bar - PS + SN and/or OHS - 2-3 sets of 2 reps
- 2x25
- 2x30
- 2x33
- 1x35
- 1x38
- 1x38
- 1x40
- 1x43
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
If it was an afternoon meet (I usually train after work), I don't think I would have done as much.
It took a lot of 'waking up' for me to be able to pull PRs at 8:30 - 9:00 AM.
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