Strong swing, weak deadlift - how to bridge the gap?

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
@kennycro@@aol.com I have a quick follow up question.

What would be the frequency of exercise variation? They don't explain it in the abstract of the article you posted. Is that within a workout, rotate through the week, or stick with one for a few weeks?
Training Age

Training age is the length of time you have been training.

Your Training Age is a determinate factor in the length of how long you perform certain exercises in a training cycle.

Novice Lifters adapt slowly to a training program. That means they can use the same exercises, program for a much longer period of time before needing to change. Changing exercise about every 6 - 8 weeks is a good time frame.

However, if you are still making progress after 8 week, keep going. A good general rule is when you stop making progress or regress, you need to change exercise, drop the weight down to a lower, lighter training percentage and progressively work you way back up.

Advance Lifters adapt quickly. They need to change their exercises more frequently; about every 3 - 4 weeks.

In conjunction with frequently varying your exercises, I am a proponent of varying your type of Strength Training in the same training cycle, ...

Conjugate Training

This is defined as training different types of strength in the same training cycle. This method goes back decades with Bodybuilders and Strength Athletes.

Combining different type of Strength Training provides a "Synergistic Effect". It's like adding 2 + 2 and getting 5. One type of Strength Training elicits a greater training response in a different Type of Strength Training.

As an example, increasing your Limit Strength (1RM, 1 Repetition Max) allows you to push/pull more weight in a Hypertrophy (Bodybuilding Program); increasing muscle mass and promoting recovery.

Hypertrophy Training (increasing muscle mass) increases your Limit Strength (1 RM); metaphorically speaking, putting a bigger engine in your car.

Westside Powerlifting Method

This method that been around since the 1980's. it incorporates...

1) Constantly Varying Exercise in the training program that are similar in nature to the Competition Lift.

2) Conjugate Training: Within the training cycle training Limit Strength, Power (mislabeled as "Speed Training") and Hypertrophy Training.

Dr Michael Zourdos' Research
https://liftvault.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Daily-Undulating-Periodization-Research-Zourdos-et-al-2012-LiftVault.com_.pdf

Zourdos 118 page dissertation, listed above, is an excellent piece of work.

Zourdos' research reinforces the Westside Method. Zourdos' Conjugate Non-Linear Periodizating Program found setting one day aside for training different type of Strength increased Limit Strength.

1) Monday: Hypertrophy Training

2) Wednesday: Power Training

3) Friday: Limit Strength Training, 1 Repetition Max

Understanding The Concept

There are a multitude of way to write and employ Conjugate Training, allowing you to customize it based on the number of days you train, how you like to train, etc.

An Example of My Program

1) Varying Exercises: I change my exercise up every three weeks. With a new exercise, the first week is light and easy. The second week is requires moderate effort. The third week, I push the limit.

The forth week, I start all over with a different exercise. Week 4 becomes Week 1 with a new exercise.

2) Conjugate Training. I combine Power and Strength Training on the same day. My Hypertrophy Training is performed on a different day.

Summary

1) Frequency of Exercise Before Change: It depends on your Training Age.

a) Novice Lifters take longer to adapt. Thus, they can employ the same exercise for a longer period of time before they need to change; about 6 - 8 weeks.

b) Advance Lifter adapt quickly. They need to vary their exercises more often; about every 3 - 4 weeks.

2) Conjugate Training provide a "Synergistic Effect"; it amount to adding 2 + 2 and getting 5. One type of Strength enhance another; providing a greater training effect.

3) Common Sense: When you stop making progress or regress with an exercise or a Conjugate Training Cycle, it is time to change the exercise and reboot your Conjugate Training Cycle; dramatically decrease the load to where it is light an easy, allow for muscle recovery and progressively increase the load each week until you hit the wall and then start over.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Taranenko74

Double-Digit Post Count
Swings are more metabolic conditioning than strength training, although swings are good for posterior chain it doesn’t make you absolutely strong.

Add deadlifts and squats in order to gain strength. As a 100 kg 1rm beginner, you don’t need fancy stuff or complicated programming. Just squat and dl 3-4 x week, work up to 5rm of the day and make 2-3 solid sets with that load. You may alternate sessions weekly like:
Week 1: 2x dl, 1 x sq
Week 2: 2x sq, 1 x dl, then continue rotation starting with wk1 again.
If you feel good, you may add 4th session per week and play by feel: 2 sets of easy sq and dl + some bench, pull-ups, kb-work or whatever you like.

Good luck! :)
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
I weigh 220lbs, do the S&S swings with the 32 (rarely with the 40), and my deadlift without really programming anything for it, is at 370lbs without even trying heavier. I guess this shows how important physical mass is to lifting weights at least for grinds.

Deadlifts and swings are different. Swings are much lighter and the movement while having some similar parts to it, isn't the same movement. Great deadlifters claim the swing helps them in some aspects of deadlifting, I guess in the hip hinge aspect, as is often the case that you can use other moves to help you progress at the primary move (like goblet squats helping the swings and TGUs in S&S.)

Regarding squats - I think the movement pattern is important; it's more of a neurological adaptation that makes it useful than moving up in weight for practical application if you're already doing swings, deadlifts or TGUs. To come to think of it, TGUs involve asymmetrical squats, and swings share some of the same strength systems. I think of goblet squats and kettlebell asymmetrical rack squats as being more about my upper body (biceps for instance) being challenged through a variation in hip and back angle. I find this useful for judo where crouching is important to make throws work.
 

Chrisdavisjr

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I was fortunate enough to receive some instruction from a qualified strength and conditioning coach yesterday morning and my problem was indeed technique related.

Without realising, I had been pulling almost entirely with my back: I would grip the bar, partially straighten my legs and then straighten up using my back in a stiff-legged fashion. I had become so conditioned from trying not to squat while doing swings that I was keeping my hips far too high up getting virtually no leg involvement in my deadlifts.

Placing the bar a bit further forward, lowering my hips and actually getting my legs and glutes involved in the movement has made a huge difference. I managed to pull 115kg/253lbs without much difficulty.

Now I just need to work on reinforcing the correct movement pattern now that I actually know what it feels like.

@Kozushi I was concerned that my low body mass would negatively affect my ability to move weight although I was reassured when I saw Steffi Cohen lifting 500lbs for 3 reps at a body weight of around 120lbs (although it looks as though 60lbs of that is all quads!): Dr. Stefanie Cohen, DPT on Instagram: “500lbs x 3. I’m back.”
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Swings are more metabolic conditioning than strength training,
Metabolic Conditioning

Yes, Kettlebell Swing can be used for Metabolic Conditioning, providing on how the program is written and executed.

That means Lower Weight, Higher Repetition, Shorter Rest Period between Sets.

However, the nature of the Kettlebell Swing also works for...

Power Training

The Kettlebell Swing is a excellent movement that produce and develops Power

That means Higher Weight (performing Swing that are near body weight), Lower Repetitions, and Longer Rest Periods; shorter Rest Period are acceptable with a Cluster Set Protocol.

Kenny Croxdale
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Great deadlifters claim the swing helps them in some aspects of deadlifting, I guess in the hip hinge aspect, as is often the case that you can use other moves to help you progress at the primary move (like goblet squats helping the swings and TGUs in S&S.)
Increasing Power Output

As noted in previous post, Kettlebell Swings produce Power Output that rival Olympic Movements.

Research has demonstrated that increasing Power transfers to an increase in Limit Strength.

Essentially, "Power is the grease that help you slice through your sticking point".

Goblet Squat and TGU

Exercises like this may help. However, these movement a Strength Movement, not Power Movements.

Kenny Croxdale
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
Increasing Power Output

As noted in previous post, Kettlebell Swings produce Power Output that rival Olympic Movements.

Research has demonstrated that increasing Power transfers to an increase in Limit Strength.

Essentially, "Power is the grease that help you slice through your sticking point".

Goblet Squat and TGU

Exercises like this may help. However, these movement a Strength Movement, not Power Movements.

Kenny Croxdale
Kenny, you are an invaluable resource! Might I flip the question around, since my problem is going up in weight for the S&S swings? What supplementary exercises could I do to help get my 100 swings to the 40 and 48kg weights?
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
What supplementary exercises could I do to help get my 100 swings to the 40 and 48kg weights?
From "Simple" to Serious Endurance | StrongFirst
Al Ciampa

In this article, I will offer you a road map toward option three: serious endurance. It is based on the idea of improving your level of conditioning by using short but powerful bouts of work, coupled with sufficient recovery periods, for an extended overall duration.

This is more in Al's domain. His article lays it out for you.

If you have any question, Al the guy.

Kenny Croxdale
 

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Is this the basic question:
Kenny, you are an invaluable resource! Might I flip the question around, since my problem is going up in weight for the S&S swings? What supplementary exercises could I do to help get my 100 swings to the 40 and 48kg weights?
Have you tried the program described in the article? Are you asking about meeting the time trials or just working with those loads?

If memory serves, I thought that you had been working with 40 a few years ago. What changed?
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
I was curious if there were non-swing exercises to help get further with swings. Just curious. It seems there sort of aren't. I can do all 100 swings with the 40, I just need on average about 2 minutes rest between sets of 10. I can do the swings with the 32 with about 1 minute rest between sets. S&S is serving me extremely well. As for why I haven't moved up dramatically in weight, Judo is mostly the cause of this - it's a demanding activity and so I can't focus only on S&S. However, my S&S is indeed getting better. I'm "owning" the weights I'm at more and more.
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Senior Certified Instructor
@Kozushi, you sound like a good candidate, should you wish to try something different, for sets of 5 swings with the 40 kg. You will probably be fine doing those on the minute, and you might start with less than 20 sets and work up the volume to 100 total, then work on reconfiguring, e.g.,

5 reps x 20 sets
6 reps x 16 sets
7 reps x 14 sets
8 reps x 12 sets
9 reps x 11 sets
10 reps x 10 sets

And you'd just work through that progression gradually as you were able, doing all of them on the minute. You could break it down even further like this

5 reps x 10 sets, then 12 sets, etc., until you hit 20 sets
6 reps x 8 sets, then 10, etc., until you hit 16 sets

etc.

-S-
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
@Kozushi, you sound like a good candidate, should you wish to try something different, for sets of 5 swings with the 40 kg. You will probably be fine doing those on the minute, and you might start with less than 20 sets and work up the volume to 100 total, then work on reconfiguring, e.g.,

5 reps x 20 sets
6 reps x 16 sets
7 reps x 14 sets
8 reps x 12 sets
9 reps x 11 sets
10 reps x 10 sets

And you'd just work through that progression gradually as you were able, doing all of them on the minute. You could break it down even further like this

5 reps x 10 sets, then 12 sets, etc., until you hit 20 sets
6 reps x 8 sets, then 10, etc., until you hit 16 sets

etc.

-S-
I'll start doing this. I was afraid to do less than 10 swings at a time due to thinking that I'd lose out on the cardio and endurance benefits that way. I'm excited to try this out. I feel I am getting a lot more out of training when it's heavier in weight. I like working out with heavy weights.
 

godjira1

Triple-Digit Post Count
Just to toss in another anecdotal data point for Swings vs Deadlifts:

I weighed in 162lb today, achieved Simple last month and right now can do 10x10 2h Swings in 5:00 frankly at easy-ish effort.

Today I tried to do a rack pull (off the lowest setting I could place on the safeties) and failed 150kg on both Conventional and Sumo.... in comparison to my old maxes, I was pulling 150kg off the floor on Sumo so I've gone backwards. BUT I also haven't done any sort of deadlifts in 4+ months so maybe you can take it as a positive.

Long story short: while I think swings/deadlifts are related, it is possible that for a lot of people the correlation between the ability to swing for decent number of reps with moderate bell AND their 1RM deadlift is pretty low.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Long story short: while I think swings/deadlifts are related, it is possible that for a lot of people the correlation between the ability to swing for decent number of reps with moderate bell AND their 1RM deadlift is pretty low.
I have stated in a multitude of other post, Heavy Swing are necessary. Preforming swing with a "Moderate Bell" isn't going to get the job done.

Kenny Croxdale
 

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Just to toss in another anecdotal data point for Swings vs Deadlifts:

I weighed in 162lb today, achieved Simple last month and right now can do 10x10 2h Swings in 5:00 frankly at easy-ish effort.

Today I tried to do a rack pull (off the lowest setting I could place on the safeties) and failed 150kg on both Conventional and Sumo.... in comparison to my old maxes, I was pulling 150kg off the floor on Sumo so I've gone backwards. BUT I also haven't done any sort of deadlifts in 4+ months so maybe you can take it as a positive.

Long story short: while I think swings/deadlifts are related, it is possible that for a lot of people the correlation between the ability to swing for decent number of reps with moderate bell AND their 1RM deadlift is pretty low.
Here’s what I would humbly submit as a footnote to this anecdote: it is the practice of tension that carries over, not “doing the work” in and of itself. If your swings are practiced with high-tension, there will be noticeable carry over to DL, especially if the two hinge positions are similar.

Similarly, you won’t get the carry over that we usually observe from the snatch to the press, unless you are practicing tension.

So when someone reports something like the above, 100 swings in 5 min, I think: “adequate tension” swings, which will not carry over as well to the DL, as you observed.

It’s the practice of tension that makes the difference, and is usually ignored, misunderstood, traded for by the average practitioner.
 

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
I have stated in a multitude of other post, Heavy Swing are necessary. Preforming swing with a "Moderate Bell" isn't going to get the job done.

Kenny Croxdale
Hey Kenny, I believe that we just said the same thing at about the same time. Interesting.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Hey Kenny, I believe that we just said the same thing at about the same time. Interesting.
Yes sir. Here is some interesting information on Heavy Kettlebell Swings...

Olympic Weightlifting vs. Kettlebells on Lower Body Strength and Power - Bret Contreras

The rNSCA (National Strength and Conditioning Research Journal) study determined that,...

"The Olympic lifts are superior to kettlebell training."

Contreras noted that the reason for that was/is, "The Oly group used 80% of 1RM loads for their exercises. But the kb group stuck to solely a 16 kg (35 lb) kettlebell for their exercises. This is a HUGE flaw as it gives the Oly group a distinct advantage!"

Contreras demonstrated that Heavy Kettlebell Swings Power Output rivals Olympic Movement...

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

The title of this article sucks. Apparently, T-Nation.com has the authority to edit an article, which they did in this case. Contreras noted that he wasn't happy about them doing that, in one of his presentation at an NSCA Conference.

On a side bar note, I emailed the editors at StrongFirst about writing an article and was informed they also edit; which make me leary. I am curious as to how an an anonymous only know as the "editor" that provided me with no bio background on themselves iss able to edit information they most likely won't complete comprehend; a bit of a "Black Box Theory".

Now let's move on to something that is a bit of a puzzle for me that you might shed some light on...

Mike Butkovich

Mike is a friend of mine that combined Kettlebell Swings with Cluster Set Deadlifts. In doing so, he increased his body weight and Deadlift, finally pulling over 600 lbs. Here his program...

Mega Heavy Kettlebell Swings

100 lb Kettlebell (the heavies Kettlebell that he could locally purchase) X 50 swings X 10 sets.

That was his entire workout out that day.

The funny thing Butkovich told me was that after performing a set of 50 Reps that he couldn't feel his hands.

Rest periods between sets were as long as it took.

Sadiv Deadlift Sets (Cluster Sets)

20 Cluster Set of 1 Rep X 60% of 1 RM, every 30 seconds.

That was the total workout.

Byron Benoit 132 lb Powerlifter


Benoit was one of the best Powerlifter in the late 60's and early 70's.

Benoit Squatted 440 in a wrestling suit with knee wraps

He Deadlifted 520 lbs, never doing Deadlifts. Benoit performed High Rep Back Extensions of 20 plus reps.

Thus, Benoit's High Rep Back Raise "Hip Extension" was similar to Butkovich's Heavy Kettlebell "Hip Extension" Kettlebell Swings.

First Hand Information

I know both Butkovich and Benoit. I obtain the information from them in a personal interviews.

Your Input

Evidently, Heavy High Rep Hip Extension works for Deadlifting.

However, I still don't quite understand it.

Your thoughts?

Thanks,

Kenny Croxdale
 
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