Kettlebell Stronger double press than single?

[Sean M]

I am hoping to get some input on my press.

My C&P personal best is 5 right, 4 left with 24kg.

Any given day I can manage 3 right and grind out a third rep on the left. I GTG'd the 24kg press recently using the Soju & Tuba template, and that helped a lot.

At the end of that program I thought I'd try for a 2 x 24kg press, to see if I could manage one (never being able to get "out of the hole" in previous attempts). Well, I could actually do three reps:


How could I manage double press for 3, but only 3-4 on my left side with half the weight?

I have played around with racking uneven bells and pressing the heavier one (24kg) while keeping the other one (16kg) in the rack, and that seems more solid. Now I also see a great tip from Hector Gutierrez using a dowel, driving it into the ground as you press. I'm going to try that in my RoP ladders tomorrow to see if that duplicates the feeling of the uneven racked method.

So I think my problem is losing the lat connection / trunk stability when I get to the sticking point, particularly in the left. My urge to lean sideways is greater when pressing on the left, and I know that "leaks" tension/strength.

Am I on the right track with identifying the problem? My 3-rep 2x24kg tells me my strength capacity is there, but something about my technique is limiting my single bell work.

 

[Sauli]

I have no idea, but perhaps because you have higher fullbody tension when you press doubles. It may also be mental thing.

 

[DavThew]

I'd guess @Sauli is onto something there. I find it much easier to build a lot of tension with doubles rather than a single KB. Less feed forward required, more just responding to the weight you are dealing with.

 

[Brett Jones]

Inter-limb response and carryover as well as great irradiation and tension

 

[Sean M]

I'd guess @Sauli is onto something there. I find it much easier to build a lot of tension with doubles rather than a single KB. Less feed forward required, more just responding to the weight you are dealing with.

Fascinating! Tension really is the key to strength.

 

[Mirek]

@Sean M I've observed the very same thing on myself. My conclusion was that of @Sauli -
with one bell only I am too "relaxed".

 

[Taranenko74]

Unilateral movement is always <50 % of balanced lateral movement. Say one can deadlift 200 but certainly not 100 as a single leg movement. That's because of counterbalancing the movement by other body parts and leverages has its costs.

By 1-arm press you need to stabilize your torso on other side which affects to the force output on the working side. You may think the pressing output as 100 % with 2-hands; with 1-hand you need to use say 30 % for stabilizing so you have 70 % left for the actual pressing.

That's the biomechanical explanation. Then there is the neural adaptation as well. For example the right-handed shot putter can press way more with R-hand than L-hand, even though he/she could be evenly balanced in lateral movements like barbell presses...

 

[Mirek]

Unilateral movement is always <50 % of balanced lateral movement. Say one can deadlift 200 but certainly not 100 as a single leg movement. That's because of counterbalancing the movement by other body parts and leverages has its costs.

By 1-arm press you need to stabilize your torso on other side which affects to the force output on the working side. You may think the pressing output as 100 % with 2-hands; with 1-hand you need to use say 30 % for stabilizing so you have 70 % left for the actual pressing.

That's the biomechanical explanation. Then there is the neural adaptation as well. For example the right-handed shot putter can press way more with R-hand than L-hand, even though he/she could be evenly balanced in lateral movements like barbell presses...

That makes sense.

 

[Sean M]

Unilateral movement is always <50 % of balanced lateral movement. Say one can deadlift 200 but certainly not 100 as a single leg movement. That's because of counterbalancing the movement by other body parts and leverages has its costs.

By 1-arm press you need to stabilize your torso on other side which affects to the force output on the working side. You may think the pressing output as 100 % with 2-hands; with 1-hand you need to use say 30 % for stabilizing so you have 70 % left for the actual pressing.

That's the biomechanical explanation. Then there is the neural adaptation as well. For example the right-handed shot putter can press way more with R-hand than L-hand, even though he/she could be evenly balanced in lateral movements like barbell presses...

Fascinating, thanks. I had heard (bro science) of a bilateral deficit but that was implying say a barbell overhead press would be less than a dumbbell press with one arm with half the weight. Which is the opposite of what you’re saying.

I think my “leak” is in my lat and ab stabilizer strength, so I’m going to focus on really tensing my midsection along with my legs and glutes. I already grip the bell hard (habit from heavy getups), so I think this middle portion - literally and figuratively - is where I need to focus.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

Unilateral movement is always <50 % of balanced lateral movement. Say one can deadlift 200 but certainly not 100 as a single leg movement. That's because of counterbalancing the movement by other body parts and leverages has its costs.

By 1-arm press you need to stabilize your torso on other side which affects to the force output on the working side. You may think the pressing output as 100 % with 2-hands; with 1-hand you need to use say 30 % for stabilizing so you have 70 % left for the actual pressing.

That's only "half true".
It's correct if you use only a single piece of equipment for the bilateral move (e.g. a barbell), because both limbs (e.g. the arms in a bench press) are connected to and apply force to the same object.
If you use two objects though (e.g. one KB or dumbbell per arm), it's actually the opposite, because you have to balance and stabilize them apart from each other. This is harder for the body than having to focus on only one object. Because of the higher amount of balancing less force can be applied to each of the two objects (compared to only one object) and therefore you should be able to use more weight (per hand!!!) during a unilateral single object lift than during a bilateral dual object lift.
(--> The One Arm Press)

The usuall order is as followed (from strongest to weakest per arm):
Bilateral single object lift > unilateral single object lift > bilateral dual object lift

Note this is true for standing upper body lifts. For lower body lifts or lying upper body lifts (e.g. single arm bench) the position of the objects is also very important - e.g. placing the load laterally or contra-laterally on a single-leg DL - so I'm a bit more cautious for generalizing the statement for those lifts.
Although you can definitely say "the more balancing is required the less force can be applied to the object".

 

[Brett Jones]

Just a quick note - I have seen folks Single leg DL (with a barbell) 315 but they did not have 600+ deadlift, and folks that press the beast but don't have a 200+ MP (barbell) so there is truth to the bilateral deficit IMO

 

[Taranenko74]

That's only "half true".
It's correct if you use only a single piece of equipment for the bilateral move (e.g. a barbell), because both limbs (e.g. the arms in a bench press) are connected to and apply force to the same object.
If you use two objects though (e.g. one KB or dumbbell per arm), it's actually the opposite, because you have to balance and stabilize them apart from each other. This is harder for the body than having to focus on only one object. Because of the higher amount of balancing less force can be applied to each of the two objects (compared to only one object) and therefore you should be able to use more weight (per hand!!!) during a unilateral single object lift than during a bilateral dual object lift.
(--> The One Arm Press)

The usuall order is as followed (from strongest to weakest per arm):
Bilateral single object lift > unilateral single object lift > bilateral dual object lift

Note this is true for standing upper body lifts. For lower body lifts or lying upper body lifts (e.g. single arm bench) the position of the objects is also very important - e.g. placing the load laterally or contra-laterally on a single-leg DL - so I'm a bit more cautious for generalizing the statement for those lifts.
Although you can definitely say "the more balancing is required the less force can be applied to the object".

Good points, thx! I need to take a look on this...

 

[guardian7]

The bilateral deficit (a single of more than half a double limbed lift) is a basic principle in exercise science that is widely reported. Scientists are not sure exactly why though, and there is variation according to many factors such as type of lift, upper vs lower body etc. Bilateral Strength Deficit Is Not Neural in Origin; Rather Due to Dynamometer Mechanical Configuration

Regarding the OP, the results are not then surprising. You divide the total in half and your singles are slightly more than half your double.

So 5 * 24 R
3-4 * 24 L
3 * 24*2 double would be normal.

"How could I manage double press for 3, but only 3-4 on my left side with half the weight?"

 

[Sauli]

Just a quick note - I have seen folks Single leg DL (with a barbell) 315 but they did not have 600+ deadlift, and folks that press the beast but don't have a 200+ MP (barbell) so there is truth to the bilateral deficit IMO

Lets take this conversation little bit off-topic, but what kinda correlation there are between double bells and barbell.
I guess that guy who can press double 40kg propably can press 85-100kg with barbell.
Is there any reports how double frontsquat transfers to backsquat?

 

[Zack Kaufman]

Unilateral movement is always <50 % of balanced lateral movement. Say one can deadlift 200 but certainly not 100 as a single leg movement. That's because of counterbalancing the movement by other body parts and leverages has its costs.

By 1-arm press you need to stabilize your torso on other side which affects to the force output on the working side. You may think the pressing output as 100 % with 2-hands; with 1-hand you need to use say 30 % for stabilizing so you have 70 % left for the actual pressing.

That's the biomechanical explanation. Then there is the neural adaptation as well. For example the right-handed shot putter can press way more with R-hand than L-hand, even though he/she could be evenly balanced in lateral movements like barbell presses...

I disagree with this explanation.

Dan John talks about this in one of his books - can’t remember which. Can You Go or Intervention.

Hopefully not misquoting too bad, but he explains that a single arm press is almost always greater than 50 percent of two arm military press since you have your entire base behind the single arm press. 2 legs + 1 torso for 1 arm vs. 2 legs + 1 torso for 2 arms.

He says it’s almost like a “hack” for upper body work since you can use more weight for each arm and get the benefits of using heavier weight.

Makes sense to me and also appears true for me.

 

[damogari]

Unilateral movement is always <50 % of balanced lateral movement. Say one can deadlift 200 but certainly not 100 as a single leg movement. That's because of counterbalancing the movement by other body parts and leverages has its costs.

I also have to disagree. My experience: I can press 48kg for 1-2 reps but cant press 48+48. Same for lighter weights, can do more reps pressing single 32kg than 32+32 etc.

Can't precisely compare barbell vs double kb press. When I trained exclusively with bells barbell felt heavier. Now I train mostly with barbell and pressing bells feels more demanding.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

@Zack Kaufman & @damogari see my post above.
There's a difference between pressing just one or two objects.
I think anyone who's done it will agree with me that pressing two 32s is a lot harder than pressing 64Kg on a barbell.

Also let's not forget the actual objects. For example I find it easier to press X weight in the form of a KB than pressing the same weight as dumbbell.

 

[damogari]

I think anyone who's done it will agree with me that pressing two 32s is a lot harder than pressing 64Kg on a barbell.

I have mixed experiences about this. When I finished TTC complex I was able to press double 32kg 10 times and I am pretty sure that at that time pressing 60kg 10 times was harder or even impossible for me. Unfortunately I didn't tested it then.

The more natural pressing path and lower center of mass of kettlebells can overcome balancing two independent objects issue. If it helps somebody: in two weeks I am finishing current barbell program and can test pressing 80kg barbell and 40+40 kg bells for reps.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Sean M, my short answer: work on your single bell press.

My longer answer: work on your single bell press with a focus of creating the most solid platform from feet to shoulders that you can. Your single bell numbers will, I predict, go up. The Rite of Passage might be good for you.

I would also like to see you clean with less shoulder shrug, ideally none. For doubles, pick a weight you can get a perfect, hip-driven, calm clean for 2-3 reps and try to keep that technique and work up to higher reps - start by building volume of perfect, 2-3 rep sets of double cleans.

I haven't seen a video of your single bell press, but I will make another prediction - you'll press 28 or 32 kg for a single in 6-12 months if you work on your single bell press. A video of your single bell press would be good to see.

-S-

 

[Sean M]

@Sean M, my short answer: work on your single bell press.

My longer answer: work on your single bell press with a focus of creating the most solid platform from feet to shoulders that you can. Your single bell numbers will, I predict, go up. The Rite of Passage might be good for you.

I would also like to see you clean with less shoulder shrug, ideally none. For doubles, pick a weight you can get a perfect, hip-driven, calm clean for 2-3 reps and try to keep that technique and work up to higher reps - start by building volume of perfect, 2-3 rep sets of double cleans.

I haven't seen a video of your single bell press, but I will make another prediction - you'll press 28 or 32 kg for a single in 6-12 months if you work on your single bell press. A video of your single bell press would be good to see.

-S-

Thanks! I would be very happy with 32kg single at the end of this RoP cycle. I don't have a 28kg but that may need to be my next bell: good for some heavier pressing, and A+A snatch.

Here is my single bell press 24kg PR from the conclusion of RoP with 16kg. Next time I'll get my legs in the frame And my training log post from the final week in late January. My baseline was 0 left, 1 right, so I was very happy with the improvement - all from lots of 16kg RoP ladders!

I followed this with Dry Fighting Weight (2x16kg), then 4 weeks of moderate S&S and other maintenance work, and GTG 24kg press (S&T template). This doubles press was at the end of the S&T cycle, just before starting RoP again.

Now I'm back to RoP with 20kg and some 24kg for the presses, and 24kg for swings and snatches.