Bodyweight Structural balance

[John Kowalski]

I was wondering if doing both, horizontal and vertical pulling and pushing movements is necessary? Some coaches claim that you should balance horizontal push exercises (push up) with horizontal pull (inverted row) and vertical pull (chin ups) supplemented with vertical push (handstand push up). Currently I’m doing many chin ups and push ups and I’m curious if it’s going to cause any problems. Should it be supplemented by some rowing movements (horizontal plane) and vertical push? Strongfirst bodyweight courses involve one arm push ups and tactical pull ups, sometimes I’ve seen them doing handstands, but never rowing movements. Thanks.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

I don't think you need to do that. Sure there are a lot of people out there who say you need to pushull in a 1:2 ratio and stuff like that.
IMO what you really should focus on is proper scapula function. You can strengthen the muscles responsible for this all day long, but you'll end up nowhere if those muscles don't function properly.
It's probably not wise to bench all the time without doing a single pulling movement, but all the horizontal-vertical stuff is unnecessary.
If you have proper scapula function you just need to strenghten the muscles responsible for it so they don't get "overpowered" by the pushing muscles, but how you do it is not important.
If your lats, traps, subscapularis, supraspinatus, teres minor and infranspinatus all get bigger and stronger from e.g. KB swings alone than you don't need anything else.
Your body (muscles) only knows tension and resistance and doesn't "care" about planes, the only thing important for the body is "I have to use X muscle with Y force".
So if e.g. pullups (a vertical pull) are enough to strengthen all those mentioned muscles and you have proper scapula function then you'll need no horizontal row at all.
This will be be different for everybody. Some will need to do pullups, rows, facepulls and band pull-aparts to properly strenghten all muscles, some will only need pullups and rows, some only rows, some only this, some only that...


To summarize it:
Proper scapula function first -> then strenghten all the muscles responsible for it in whatever way you like.
Stop thinking in "planes" and start thinking in "muscles worked"!

Of course all of this is just my opinion and nobody can say that it's right or wrong, otherwise there wouldn't be an ongoing debate about this topic with a lot of contradiction opinions and studies supporting either side.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I was wondering if doing both, horizontal and vertical pulling and pushing movements is necessary?

As @Kettlebelephant said,

Proper scapula function first -> then strenghten all the muscles responsible for it with in whatever way you like

And

Of course all of this is just my opinion and nobody can say that it's right or wrong

I think it depends on your goal and on your programming. By programming, I mean if this is a long run routine or not.

For instance, in my routine which is a long run one, I always work on agonist / antagonist to avoid any potential structural imbalance. I noticed that my body reacts better that way : pull up / dips - push ups / inverted row, etc... Working that way can help you to lock joints in certain moves (example: press in up position).

Then, working agonist antagonist permits, IMO, to work on every functional moves: pull up (climbing a wall / a tree), push (your car has an ignition issue), press (lifting luggage in a train / plane), row (starting a chainsaw, etc..). Basically, you can do these pairs if you need it in you everyday life or not.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I know a lot of shoulder injury victims with a common explanation from doctors being lots of push-ups with not enough rowing. My pull-ups get better when I row but I can't say my rowing gets better when I do pull-ups. Some movements like TGUs make everything better for me though.

 

[rickyw]

Currently I’m doing many chin ups and push ups and I’m curious if it’s going to cause any problems.

Both these exercises work the shoulder internal rotators heavily. Lats, pecs, teres major. I have always felt the combination of only a horizontal push and a vertical pull facilitated rounded shoulders and scapular dyskinesis. The external rotators of the shoulder are not worked enough w/that combo of exercises. Just my opinion, YMMV.

 

[pet']

Hello,

+1 @Bro Mo
Ago / antago permits to protect joints on the long run

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Shahaf Levin]

IMO what you really should focus on is proper scapula function... Your body (muscles) only knows tension and resistance and doesn't "care" about planes, the only thing important for the body is "I have to use X muscle with Y force".

+1 for that! My opinion to.

Ingrain proper scapular position and function. That (IMHO) should be the goal. Use which ever tool that work for you.

My guess is that for many (most?) people keeping proper thoracic mobility stabilizing their shoulder joint under compression and distraction loads (aka push / pull) is enough. It is for me. If an individual needs multi-planar work in pushing and pulling to achieve these than he should do it.

Some movements like TGUs make everything better for me though.

I assume this is because TGUs demand high level of scapular function.

 

[pet']

Hello,

A good example of a structural balanced program could be ROP : press (triceps) and pull up (biceps), for instance.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Tarzan]

Both these exercises work the shoulder internal rotators heavily. Lats, pecs, teres major. I have always felt the combination of only a horizontal push and a vertical pull facilitated rounded shoulders and scapular dyskinesis. The external rotators of the shoulder are not worked enough w/that combo of exercises. Just my opinion, YMMV.

I couldn't agree more. Our shoulders are possibly the most complex joints in our bodies. To think of them like other joints that are actuated in a linear fashion can be a big mistake. Most people train the internal rotational aspects and never consider the stabilisers.

When you consider the function of a shoulder you have to think in arcs not just planes of movement.

 

[John Kowalski]

Both these exercises work the shoulder internal rotators heavily. Lats, pecs, teres major. I have always felt the combination of only a horizontal push and a vertical pull facilitated rounded shoulders and scapular dyskinesis. The external rotators of the shoulder are not worked enough w/that combo of exercises. Just my opinion, YMMV.

What would you add to supplement?

 

[pet']

Hello,

As general rules :
- push / row (push ups / inverted row)
- pull / press (chin ups / kb press, dips)

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Matts]

my guess is form also has a lot to do with it. Many people do pushups with their elbows way out to their sides and no support from their lats, etc. Others do rows with their rear delts and a bump of the hips. Build more tension all over and use good form, and imbalances are much less likely. I imagine doctors see many patients who use bad form and then blame the exercise instead.

 

[pet']

Hello,

To echo @Matts assertion on form, here is an article about a proper push up
One Good Rep: How to Perform the Perfect Push-up
and a proper row: Strength from Down Under – Aussie Pull-ups & Beyond

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[rickyw]

What would you add to supplement?

I would add some rows or a reverse fly in addition

 

[pet']

Hello,

However, some agonist /antagonist are often forgotten : pistol squat (for instance) and leg press (on a support to elevate the feet). That is important to work on both hamstring and quads to properly maintain the knee.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[John Kowalski]

I would add some rows or a reverse fly in addition

Are deadlifts fine for that purpose?

 

[rickyw]

Are deadlifts fine for that purpose?

I would say it depends. You get some guy who slouches over his desk all day with rounded shoulders and then goes and trains push ups and pull ups only, which work muscles that when they are tight contribute to rounding of the shoulders, and I would say deadlifts are not enough.

I was browsing the forum about push ups awhile back and came upon an old thread where Pavel mentioned that lots of push-ups can be hard on the shoulder. In the same thread he mentioned that kettlebell presses can be very good for the shoulder. I wish I could find that thread but so far have not had any luck

edit: here it is
Pushup program

 

[John Kowalski]

thank you @rickyw