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Other/Mixed Super slow training

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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When I read the different comments, it almost sounds "too good to be true": such gains in almost every fields of health (cardio vascular and muscle endurance, strength, some hypertrophie, etc...)

Preface Statement

Let me reiterate that Super Slow has its place on the train table.

The key to maintaining an exercise program is finding something you enjoy. You are most likely going to stick with if enjoy it.

The Super Slow Protocol Advocates

This group of die hard advocates has a tendency to over exaggerate it's benefits.

If Super Slow truly provided the gains in every health filed, as sometimes touted, all other training method would be obsolete.

So, as the saying goes, "If it sound too good to be true, it probably is."

In your experience, and based on your science background, do you confirm it works that well ?

No. As I previously stated in my post, I am not a proponent of it.

The majority of research and anecdotal data does not support it.

Questions

If "It works that well", ...

1) Why hasn't it gone mainstream; being used by everyone?

2) Why do athletes still perform Limit Strength Training with heavy loads, lower repetition, and longer rest periods?

3) Why do Bodybuilders still perform frequent training sessions with moderate weights, moderate repetitions for multiple sets.

Nautilus HIT, High Intensity Training

This method is to perform one all out set to failure in each exercise. It's essentially Super Slow performed with a moderate speed of movement.

Mike Mentzer and Dorian Yates

The late Mike Mentzer became and advocate of HIT and worked with former Mr Olympia, Dorain Yates. Thus, the HIT Cult often offers them up as proof.

The irony is Mentzer and Yates built their physiques with the standard the Hypertrophy Training Protocol, not HIT.

Also, Mentzer and Yates were genetically gifted and used the right "Supplements" (better lifting/bodybuilding through chemistry).

Mentzer and Yates then migrated over to HIT.

The Nautilus Colorado Study
Casey-Before-After-Front.jpg

CASEY VIATOR COLORADO EXPERIMENT BEFORE AND AFTER PHOTOS

This study revolved around a HIT Case Study.

Impressive before and after pictures, right?

The Story Behind The Story

First of all, this study has no scientific credibility. It has numerous flaws.

Secondly, Viator had been a massive top Bodybuilder prior to the study. Viator used the Traditional Bodybuilding Protocol.

He basically quit working out and eating as he had been and shrank.

Third, Viator was genetically gifted.

Thus, he was able to gain back a lot of the mass he had lost with HIT and by improving his diet (consuming more calories, protein, etc).

Which bring us to...

"Show Me The Bodies"

Name the top Limit Strength Training Athletes and Bodybuilders (beyond Mentzer, Yates, and Viator) that have obtain success in their field by only performing Super Slow and provide the details.

Could it almost be considered as an "alternative" to S&S ?

An Alternative To S&S

No.

Substituting Super Slow for S&S amounts to game of chest, sacrificing your Queen to capture someone's Bishop. It is a bad trade.

The Learning Process

A large part of the learning process come with practical experience. By using a training method or diet, you gain first hand knowledge.

My suggestion it to experiment with it and find out for yourself.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Have never done SuperSlow or HIT as a long term exclusive, but have dabbled with both.

Superslow has issues in that you have to work with lighter weights to accomodate the longer TUT. This is just not a very good trade off - it feels much tougher than the adaptive response you get.

In terms of HIT, you really need a partner to even attempt it. I find the "one working set" approach to be effective, but not by itself. Plenty of trainers use a single hard working set, Christian Thib being one of the more recent notables.

Of the two, a strict HIT approach seems like it would be more liable to pan out than the Superslow. Guys like Clarence Bass have built careers around "HIT-y" protocols, although very few people use it in the strictest interpretation of the purist.
 
Hello,

@kennycro@@aol.com
Fred Hahn (Slow Burn) is a disciple of Super Slow. I have had discussion with Fred about Super Slow.
Would you do the same comment about Fred Hahn's Slow Burn ?

It has it place on the training table.
What do you mean by that ? Would you incorporate it at a specific moment in life or training cycle ?

As far as strength is concerned - regardless hypertrophy concerns - is it worthy ?
2) Why do athletes still perform Limit Strength Training with heavy loads, lower repetition, and longer rest periods?
This is currently what I do with some kind of "daily dose": 5 * 1 pull ups with a little bit more than 1/2 bdw, 5 * 1 elevated one arm one leg push ups, 6 dragon flags with 0,5kg between my feet, 5 DL @1,5x bdw.

On the top of that, I do some "conditioning" with a circuit burpees / pull ups done with nasal breathing.

Doing so, I gained 2kg in about 1 month (but I eat a little bit more as well).

@North Coast Miller
Of the two, a strict HIT approach seems like it would be more liable to pan out than the Superslow. Guys like Clarence Bass have built careers around "HIT-y" protocols
Could you please point me a Bass' protocols targeting strength please ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
@pet'
He trains once per week resistance, once HIIT. Whole body, single working set (one or two warmup sets), not quite to failure.

He isn't true blue HIT, but then it makes no sense to follow a set of restrictive rules for no reason other than dogma - only one set, long TUT per rep, limited rest between sets.

Mentzer was using myo rep, cluster/rest pause and everything between.

A quick word re the Colorado experiment, while Viator was a perfect candidate, the results really are incredible, a testimony to Jones theories re eccentrics and intensity of effort.
 
Hello,

@North Coast Miller
He trains once per week resistance, once HIIT. Whole body, single working set (one or two warmup sets), not quite to failure.
So are there two training sessions a week, both of them full body ? Let's say:
Monday: resistance
Thursday: HIIT

As far as strength goes, I currently run a daily dose of heavy single (as I written in my previous post). This way I am always fresh and always far from failure. Basically, this is quite close from the old time strongmen. For the moment, it seems to work well I as really feel each session is easier.

On the long haul, is there a better "option" between
- Clarence Bass's strategy
- Old-time strongmen's strategy

Considering my muscle endurance, everyday, and I consider it as a warm up:
- 115 push ups and 35 pull ups in a row (regular pace, full ROM). I progressively add rep, when I find it easier.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
A quick word re the Colorado experiment, while Viator was a perfect candidate, the results really are incredible, a testimony to Jones theories re eccentrics and intensity of effort.

Not Really

The study has no scientific credibility. It has numerous flaws.

Secondly, it much easier to gain gain the muscle you had rather than increase muscle mass you never had.

Training Intensity

It did to some degree demonstrate the importance the role of intensity in training. However, intensity had and was being employed by hard core Bodybuilders and Strength Athletes.

Eccentric Training

It did shed some light on Eccentric Training.

However, the two protocols that most individual still don't understand is; Eccentric Training and Isometrics. Both are misused and applied in training sessions.

The standard approach amount to thrown crap against the wall and seeing if it sticks.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Not Really

The study has no scientific credibility. It has numerous flaws.

Secondly, it much easier to gain gain the muscle you had rather than increase muscle mass you never had.

Training Intensity

It did to some degree demonstrate the importance the role of intensity in training. However, intensity had and was being employed by hard core Bodybuilders and Strength Athletes.

Eccentric Training

It did shed some light on Eccentric Training.

However, the two protocols that most individual still don't understand is; Eccentric Training and Isometrics. Both are misused and applied in training sessions.

The standard approach amount to thrown crap against the wall and seeing if it sticks.

Kenny Croxdale
The Colorado experiment was an experiment, not a true scientific study. To this day no one else even using loaded research subjects has managed to replicate the results, which says something right there. Jones went on to do some work with the West Point football team that further verified his approach was valid even if it was far from optimum for most.

The Miami Dolphins adopted his HIT program and still the only undefeated perfect season in the history of what is probably the most physical sport ever invented. At the least we have to admit this wasn't a handicap.

There needs to be some credit awarded to Jones for pushing the bounds of what can be done with single dose training stimulus.
Ultimately it falls short for many, esp at higher levels of performance, but even Schoenfeld acknowledged it as probably the most effective response from the least input/training time.

Disclaimer: while I am fan of one hard working set and of training to failure occasionally I am no fan of HIT in its dogmatic form. It might work very well for some individuals under controlled circumstances, very few will get those better results. What I do appreciate about it is the emphasis on recovery, the minimum effective dose, and on training for adaptive response and not just to move the most weight, all somewhat refreshing in the current high-volume mania that seems to have taken over the intermediate fitness culture.
 
Would you do the same comment about Fred Hahn's Slow Burn ?

Rebranding

Fred Hahn's Slow Burn is just the rebranding of The Super Slow Protocol. The Power Of 10 is another rebranding of the Super Slow Protocol.

Hahn is a fairly smart guy. However, Hahn is one of the individual that promotes Super Slow Training as a panacea; it takes care of everything.

Rebranding is marketing, putting a new face on something old. It enable someone to promote an themselves and let's say their book or product. Buy my book or my product and make your life better.

My Intergalactic Leg Blaster Analogy

I spent 15 years in advertising/marketing. I now work in Commercial Fitness Equipment Sales.

Years ago, I come up with the term, Intergalactic Leg Blaster. I found that everyone was interested in finding out more.

I'd then go into all the cool thing it did. That jacked them up even more.

What do you mean by that ?

It has it place on the training table means is comes any type of resistance training program is better than no resistance training. If someone likes it and enjoy Super Slow they should stick with it.

An individual is more likely to stick with something they like than something they don't like.

For the individual that want to maintain their strength and health, it provide some benefits.

Would you incorporate it at a specific moment in life or training cycle ?

No

I personally would not incorporate it into my training program.

However, if fit the needs of someone who wanted to maintain their strength and health with a minimal training program, I recommend it or HIT

It also has some value with rehabilitating connective tissue.

Doing so, I gained 2kg in about 1 month (but I eat a little bit more as well).

2 kg Gain

Great.

As you know, gaining or losing weight is all about calorie intake.

Almost any resistance training program will assist with that.

As far as strength goes, ...
On the long haul, is there a better "option" between

- Clarence Bass's strategy

Clarence Bass: Bodybuilding and Fitness Home Page

Bass is a former Olympic Lifer turned Bodybuilder. Bass' Olympic Lifting Training for Strength and Power never included Super Slow Protocol.

Bass is a very smart guy. He's written several book on Bodybuilding. I have most of them.

Bass definitely does his research. I have often quoted some of the information from him.

I know Bass. I've hosted Sanctioned Strength Clinics since 2012. Bass was a speaker at my clinic one year.

Bass And HIT Training

Yes, Bass is a HIT advocate; which I find puzzling and make no sense to me.

Could you please point me a Bass' protocols targeting strength please ?

Bass' Strength Training Protocol

Search Bass' website above. There might be some information on his perspective of this on his site.

You might also try emailing him. His email is listed on his site.

I sent him a letter years ago on a subject. I was amazed. He mailed me back about a two page, type written reply. I still have the letter.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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The Miami Dolphins adopted his HIT program and still the only undefeated perfect season in the history of what is probably the most physical sport ever invented.

Hyperbolic Statement

So, the inference and take home message is that a football team can go undefeated and win the Super Bowl.

It remind me of the guy clamping his hand to keep tiger away. When ask about it's effectiveness, he replies, "You don't seen any tiger, do ya?"

Kenny Croxdale
 
The inference is that at the highest levels of competition anything that doesn't work will show up on the field. It didn't, no analogies needed.

That statement means that if you are a football team that want to win, you should be using HIT.

No wonder Miami sucks this year. Glad we solved that issue.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Hello,

@kennycro@@aol.com
Thanks !

Then I am going to email him. Who knows, if I am lucky, maybe I'll get an answer. Prior to that, I'll also look for some kind of article on his website.

My main goals are:
- building a lean muscle mass (which is the case for the moment). I'd like to weigh about 65kg (currently 60)
- keeping my cardio on a decent level (I already walk a lot, run / ruck twice a week, practice daily nasal breathing with burpees, etc...), even if I am naturally an "endurance guy"
- maintaining max strength and muscle endurance
- due to hectic schedule, I unfortunately have not a lot of time to dedicate to training

Based on that, do you think C. Bass' philosophy may get the job done, at least to a certain extent ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Based on that, do you think C. Bass' philosophy may get the job done, at least to a certain extent ?

Redundant Question

You keep asking the same question with different wording, "Will Super Slow work, at least to a certain extent."

My redundant reply is, "Yes, Super Slow has a place on training and works to a certain degree".

As with everything, the determinate factor is the objective and then work backward.

A crescent wrench works for driving a nail. However, a hammer works better.

Better results are obtained if you use the right tool for the right job/task/objective.

Kenny Croxdale
 
@pet'

I am going to do a month or two of HIT experiment. Am having major upheaval in my home schedule and won't be able to train consistently again for 2-3 months at the house. Will train quickly at work before it opens. This will be a good time to learn a little more about it hands on, just like I did with Isometrics earlier this year.

During this time I intended to work up to 2 weekly sessions of 8 sets to failure done with a 4/4 tempo and a second or two pause at the bottom of a movement. Initially I might use a quick warmup set of each about 1/2 the RM to mentally prep for the set.

These are all going to be done using sandbag for resistance in an 8-12 rep range. Variables I might be tweaking - rep cadence I might use more of a 2/6 con/ecc to keep a more explosive concentric yet still get about 10 second/rep. Instead of straight sets I might use Rest/Pause until I am mentally better acquainted with single set to failure.

My intention after a week or two is to transition to the textbook 4/4 and straight sets so I can say I finally tried it exactly the way it is described in most of the literature. Will make that call when the time comes though.

Initially I might include more rest period between exercises as well, though intend to reduce this to about 60-90 seconds.
Exercise selection:
Single leg Squat
Sissy Squat
loaded pushup
OHP
Kickstand Good Morning
Hamstring extension
1 arm row
upright row
 
Hello,

@North Coast Miller
I also plan doing some kind of twice a week training:

Strength session:
-to failure (or extremely close to it),
- based on a slow motion (10s eccentric / 1s at the bottom / 10 concentric / 1s at the top),
- no joint lock to avoid momentum
- moves: pull ups, OA push ups, dragon flags, deadlifts.
- after each move (excepted the dragon flags), a set of 10-15 plyometrics (clap push ups, etc...)

This is a kind of an hybrid between SuperSlow protocol of Doug McGuff and NeuroMass from J. Bruney

Conditioning session:
either a tabata protocol (regular 20"-10" 8x) or another interval such as 10"-40" 6x. As moves, I think I'll go for either burpees or jumping rope.

On the top of that, I'll keep my boxing sessions (2 to 3 times) and also my running / running twice a week. Of course, I'll keep some GTG because I am quite use to it now.

I sent an e-mail today to C. Bass (we will see if he answers) about his twice a week approach. If so, I'll forward you the answer if you are interested in.

Basically, I "asked for":
- max strength and muscular endurance maintenance
- cardio vascular endurance
- muscle mass maintenance / gain

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
@pet'

My foray into minimalist HIT did not pan out. Wound up falling back on a 3x / week full body, alternating upper and lower body, same exercise selection from my last post above.

2 set/exercise, the first is done with lighter weight very close to failure using min 20 (!) reps. Second set is done using heavier load in the 5-10 rep range depending on the exercise, taken to technical failure, Dropsets or Rest/Pause where applicable.

Lifting cadence is not monitored but approx 2 seconds up, 3 seconds down.

Am able to shave about 10 minutes off exercise time and squeeze it in early in the AM.
 
Hello,

@North Coast Miller
How is your training going ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
I threw in the minimalist towel and went back to a basic sandbag routine.
Currently am doing the Hobo Bundle- spinlock variant while doing sandbag for squat and hinge work.

I'd forgotten how hard the Hobo stuff is...

Am considering trying to include lunges or squats in conjunction so I get a full body variant of the hobo routine but I don't think it will be as effective.

Structure is my standard 1st set RPE 7 or so w/10 reps, 2nd set RPE 4-5 w/ 3-5 reps at heavier load, 3rd set RPE 9-10 with 6-8 rep max.

I have to make allowances for the hobo stuff, having concluded that a repmax under 7 or so might be too much for the supporting muscles - grip, biceps primarily.
 
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