Barbell Surprising results!

[taedoju]

@Cearball, your results are unusual but not altogether surprising. Perhaps your weight gain is also muscle gain - that would explain your surprisingly better bench and DL, and since you were right to expect to lose a little, the fact that your squat went down 10 kg is no surprise at all. What you did, unless you need to go out and squat a new max tomorrow, keep on doing it.

That you were overtrained is one possible explanation, but we must also say that your skill seems solid and clearly has stuck with you despite not training it for a couple of month - that's great.

No, and no.

No, not necessarily.

No, not necessarily.



For example, yes; for everyone, or for our OP, we don't have enough information to know, but an advanced lifter isn't going to test a max once a month, anyway, so ...

Some people never, for example, use 531. A linear progression works for some people, some of the time. Not everyone makes progress on every schedule, and almost no one makes progress on the same schedule forever.

Yes.

Perhaps there is a language issue here, but @taedoju, you have offered a lot of generalizations and assumed they apply - some might, some might not.

-S-

I did generalizations, they might and might not but i think more balanced weight training program should give him better results. There are principles in weight training which apply to his situation if he is advanced (he wouldn't be asking then)

- > he might have allowed for super compensation
-> he might got better leverages cos he started stretching more - so technique could be executed better
-> is someone is not competing in powerlifting/weightlifting they are probably not advanced, normal people got jobs and life which get in the way before they leave intermediete stage.
-> everything i wrote here i base on my experience, written evidence of Mark Rippetoe books (he uses recovery time as a measure of level of being advanced) and i use tables which can be found in FIT book written by Justin Lascek and dr. Hartman (which puts his deadlift in interm. category other lifts bench and squat for example at novice stage) Killustrated Weightlifting Freebies

I think the @Cearball should do few things :

-add proper programmed squats into the routine so its better balanced, i would squat twice and deadlift once
- start a cycle of deadlifts few steps back from 155 for example :
120 kg x 5 reps week 1
125 kg x 5 week 2
130 kg x 5 week 3
135kg x 3 or 5 if still possible
140 kg x3
145 kg x 3
150 x 3 or double



also hopefully no-one gets me as being cocky or something, i want to help and i voice my opinion. I mean no harm

 

[Cearball]

For that weight, I'd like you to watch your video - when you start to lower yourself towards the bar, your back looks good, but you get to a certain point, can't get any lower _that_ way, so you compromise your back. Better hip and hamstring mobility would allow you to get all the way down there with good DL posture and execute a safer, more powerful lift.

Let me know if you can or cannot see what I'm talking about in your video.

-S-

Initially I bend at the hips then when I cant bend any more I dip my knees to reach the bar.

If I kept trying to hinge my lower back rounds.

I know it rounds in these videos when setting up but I thought I take out the kink in it before I pull?

I have worked with people on tight hamstrings including 2 personal trainers (one RKC) & 3 physios have noted it & given me exercises to try & improve it.

No ones ever been able to make a difference.

I have recently been stretching for 2 months solely with very little gain in range of motion.

Only thing I noticed was after about 2 weeks a lot of tension seemed to leave my body, it was really noticeable I was way less tense.

However that didn't mean I was more flexible just more relaxed in the same ranges of motion, less pain/discomfort.

I guess what I am trying to say is it may be a case of flogging a dead horse if I go after increased hamstring flexibility.

Could i just dip my knees more?

 

[Cearball]

I did generalizations, they might and might not but i think more balanced weight training program should give him better results. There are principles in weight training which apply to his situation if he is advanced (he wouldn't be asking then)

- > he might have allowed for super compensation
-> he might got better leverages cos he started stretching more - so technique could be executed better
-> is someone is not competing in powerlifting/weightlifting they are probably not advanced, normal people got jobs and life which get in the way before they leave intermediete stage.
-> everything i wrote here i base on my experience, written evidence of Mark Rippetoe books (he uses recovery time as a measure of level of being advanced) and i use tables which can be found in FIT book written by Justin Lascek and dr. Hartman (which puts his deadlift in interm. category other lifts bench and squat for example at novice stage) Killustrated Weightlifting Freebies

I think the @Cearball should do few things :

-add proper programmed squats into the routine so its better balanced, i would squat twice and deadlift once
- start a cycle of deadlifts few steps back from 155 for example :
120 kg x 5 reps week 1
125 kg x 5 week 2
130 kg x 5 week 3
135kg x 3 or 5 if still possible
140 kg x3
145 kg x 3
150 x 3 or double



also hopefully no-one gets me as being cocky or something, i want to help and i voice my opinion. I mean no harm

Appreciate all the help & advice but I have been stuck on 150 dead for awhile.

Added a easy 10 kg to my squat in the 11 months, it could of potentially kept going up.

However I am planning to move away from the barbell for awhile & do a almost pure bodyweight strength routine for 6 months or however long I can milk some progress

Then will probably hit ROP for 6 months or however long I can milk some progress before going back to the barbell.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Cearball, I teach in a program called Flexible Steel. Our program will make you more flexible - or else. When I started working on my flexibility, I couldn't touch my ankles, let alone my toes. You need to learn to, well, you need to learn what we teach you in Flexible Steel. Have you read Relax Into Stretch, and/or Super Joints? Have you taken the StrongFirst kettlebell course? Have you read PTTP's deadlift instructions?

When you dip your knees, you're also rounding your lumbar.

Would love to see a video of your goblet squat.

-S-

 

[Cearball]

I own relax into stretch, superjoints & beyond stretching.

I also own pttp.

 

[Steve Freides]

Can you post a goblet squat video?

-S-

 

[Cearball]

This is a video of goblet squats albeit poor quality again.

 

[Steve Freides]

Those got generally better as you did them. (A video where the barbell isn't blocking the view of your feet and ankles would be nice next time.)

If you can work on that, and get deeper with keep good posture, your deadlift form will very likely improve, too. I highly recommend working with someone in person or via Skype if you can. I can't speak for others but I work on the goblet squat a lot with new clients and find it has tremendous potential to fix movement issues, often rather quickly, but it involves a lot of verbal cueing, trying different things, etc., none of which lend themselves to email or forum posts, I'm afraid.

-S-

 

[Cearball]

That is an old video but is still about the depth I can manage now.

What are the qualifications that would be good to look for?

FMS, flexible steel, SFG, RKC?

The only one of these I know is close to me is a RKC that I used in the past.

I dont live in America I live in the UK.

 

[Steve Freides]

I'd say Flexible Steel first. I'm pretty sure most FS-instructors are also SFGs. Jon Engum, founder and leader of Flexible Steel, is a Master SFG. I can't comment on the old company's instructors since I haven't been a part of that program for 3-1/2 years and neither has Pavel or any of our leadership here.

We have a pair of Flexible Steel instructors in the UK, Claire and Roger, a married couple who run a gym. Their facility is in Bracknell, about an hour outside of central London, I believe. Their contact information is at the link below:

Jon Engum's Flexible Steel, United Kingdom Instructors

We have a number of SFG's in the UK, see United Kingdom SFG's for a list of most of them.

Don't forget that many of our instructors, from Master SFG and Chief of Program, @Brett Jones on down, offer training and consultations via Skype.

And, all that said, you may find success with other approaches as well - my point here is that it sounds like it's time for you to try a new approach if the ones you've already tried for improving your flexibility haven't yielded results for you.

Hope that's helpful.

-S-

 

[Steve W.]

I agree with @Steve Freides that troubleshooting is much more effective in person, where you can have some immediate give and take. But I'll take a shot at some feedback and suggestions that will hopefully be helpful.

With regard to goblet squat form:
--Slow down. You don't really reach a quiet starting position. You are doing a lot of twitching around right up until you start your first rep and you never reach a quiet pause in the lockout between reps. Your descent is very fast, especially at the beginning of each rep, and you have a lot of unnecessary head movement.

Start each rep from a solid 'vertical plank' position. Stand tall, with the shoulders packed down, abs braced, glutes squeezed and kneecaps pulled up. Descend slowly and under control. Think of pulling yourself down instead of passively dropping.

--Hold the bell at chest level under your chin (like drinking from a goblet), and keep it there on the descent. You are holding the bell at your waist against your body and then thrusting it forward to counterbalance as you get near the bottom.

--Drop your hips down, rather than sitting back. This is a squat, not a hinge; think of sitting down between your feet. Experiment with your stance width and foot turnout to find the most comfortable position.

--In the bottom position, try prying with your elbows on TOP of your knees. Press your elbows DOWN against the tops of your knees while trying to lift your chest and elongate your spine. Think of sitting as tall as possible as you press down. You may find that you can increase your depth significantly with a few rounds of this.

--Your can also pry with your elbows inside your knees, pressing outward, shifting your weight around, and curling the bell (lowering it from the goblet position to a more extended position at waist level like you are holding it now, and then raising it back to the goblet position).

--Stand up under control. Stand tall and still and plank up at the top.

I also highly recommend Original Strength as general movement practice. I don't necessarily buy the theorizing behind it, and I don't think of it in terms of therapy, corrective exercise, or targeted mobility or flexibility training. I just find it feels good to do, and I feel and function better in general when I do it regularly. The rocking movements have particular carryover to the squat. Go the Original Strength YouTube channel, browse around and play/experiment with some of the movements.

Hope this helps.

 

[Anna C]

Hold the bell at chest level under your chin (like drinking from a goblet),

Oh, is THAT why it's called a Goblet squat?

Great advice, as always! I like "Press your elbows DOWN against the tops of your knees while trying to lift your chest and elongate your spine."

 

[Steve W.]

Oh, is THAT why it's called a Goblet squat?

Great advice, as always! I like "Press your elbows DOWN against the tops of your knees while trying to lift your chest and elongate your spine."

Yes, that's the origin of the name, from Dan John.

That technique of prying with the elbows on top of the knees came from @Brett Jones at an RKC certification in 2009. I find it extremely effective, but for some reason haven't seen anyone else mention or recommend it.

 

[Al Ciampa]

Oh, is THAT why it's called a Goblet squat?

Great advice, as always! I like "Press your elbows DOWN against the tops of your knees while trying to lift your chest and elongate your spine."

No. If I can recall, he named it a goblet squat because it is similar to how you hold a goblet in two hands. Think catholic priest at mass. Think about Dan John.

If it was to remain under the chin, beginner's could not counter balance themselves in the squat... the whole reason for this as a corrective exercise.

Of course, someone could always ask Dan...

But I usually agree with Steve W. ;]

 

[Steve W.]

But I usually agree with Al ;-).

It seems to me like we're actually saying the same thing: goblet squat => named by Dan John because you hold the KB like a goblet.

As far as holding the bell under the chin (as if holding a goblet before raising it to the lips), it still serves as a counterbalance in this position. If a beginner needs to hold it further out from the body, I have no objection to that. But the OP is holding it down near his navel to start with, it moves BACK with his hips as he descends, largely negating its effect as a counterbalance, and then he has to compensate by thrusting it forward as he gets to the bottom. I would like to see him keep his hands up at under-chin height, even if he has to move them forward for balance.

By the way, another goblet squat variation I like (from one of Pavel's old newsletters) is to use a light bell, descend to the bottom, extend the arms full straight to the front, then raise the arms as high as possible, ideally into an "overhead goblet squat" (personally, I can't get close to this), then lower the bell and stand up.

 

[Cearball]

I'd say Flexible Steel first. I'm pretty sure most FS-instructors are also SFGs. Jon Engum, founder and leader of Flexible Steel, is a Master SFG. I can't comment on the old company's instructors since I haven't been a part of that program for 3-1/2 years and neither has Pavel or any of our leadership here.

We have a pair of Flexible Steel instructors in the UK, Claire and Roger, a married couple who run a gym. Their facility is in Bracknell, about an hour outside of central London, I believe. Their contact information is at the link below:

Jon Engum's Flexible Steel, United Kingdom Instructors

We have a number of SFG's in the UK, see United Kingdom SFG's for a list of most of them.

Don't forget that many of our instructors, from Master SFG and Chief of Program, @Brett Jones on down, offer training and consultations via Skype.

And, all that said, you may find success with other approaches as well - my point here is that it sounds like it's time for you to try a new approach if the ones you've already tried for improving your flexibility haven't yielded results for you.

Hope that's helpful.

-S-

The RKC instructor qualified while Pavel was still RKC so he would have whichever tools were taught then I guess. I just suggested him because I have worked with him before & know he is local to me & very flexible around my shift pattern.

I will have a look at some of the links though & see what the options are thanks.

 

[MattM]

Of course, someone could always ask Dan...

Is Dan on here? If not someone should convince him to be.

 

[Cearball]

I agree with @Steve Freides that troubleshooting is much more effective in person, where you can have some immediate give and take. But I'll take a shot at some feedback and suggestions that will hopefully be helpful.

With regard to goblet squat form:
--Slow down. You don't really reach a quiet starting position. You are doing a lot of twitching around right up until you start your first rep and you never reach a quiet pause in the lockout between reps. Your descent is very fast, especially at the beginning of each rep, and you have a lot of unnecessary head movement.

Start each rep from a solid 'vertical plank' position. Stand tall, with the shoulders packed down, abs braced, glutes squeezed and kneecaps pulled up. Descend slowly and under control. Think of pulling yourself down instead of passively dropping.

--Hold the bell at chest level under your chin (like drinking from a goblet), and keep it there on the descent. You are holding the bell at your waist against your body and then thrusting it forward to counterbalance as you get near the bottom.

--Drop your hips down, rather than sitting back. This is a squat, not a hinge; think of sitting down between your feet. Experiment with your stance width and foot turnout to find the most comfortable position.

--In the bottom position, try prying with your elbows on TOP of your knees. Press your elbows DOWN against the tops of your knees while trying to lift your chest and elongate your spine. Think of sitting as tall as possible as you press down. You may find that you can increase your depth significantly with a few rounds of this.

--Your can also pry with your elbows inside your knees, pressing outward, shifting your weight around, and curling the bell (lowering it from the goblet position to a more extended position at waist level like you are holding it now, and then raising it back to the goblet position).

--Stand up under control. Stand tall and still and plank up at the top.

I also highly recommend Original Strength as general movement practice. I don't necessarily buy the theorizing behind it, and I don't think of it in terms of therapy, corrective exercise, or targeted mobility or flexibility training. I just find it feels good to do, and I feel and function better in general when I do it regularly. The rocking movements have particular carryover to the squat. Go the Original Strength YouTube channel, browse around and play/experiment with some of the movements.

Hope this helps.

Weird you mention OS

I have becoming bulletproof.

Bought it awhile ago read it but didn't implement anything.

Then when I took my 2 months off from training the final two weeks I remembered the book & switched out my stretching for OS resets.

Decided to carry them on as they take up so little time & are very easy to implement almost anywhere except maybe the crawling.

So my week would look like.

Day 1 S&C (stretching after)

Day 2 OS resets

Day 3 Judo

Day 4 Karate

Day 5 OS Resets

Day 6 S&C (stretching after)

Day 7 OS Resets

But to be honest the OS resets can just be done before bed as well if my body is feeling funky or achy e.g. after judo

Thanks for the tips anyway regarding GB squat.

 

[Steve Freides]

Is Dan on here? If not someone should convince him to be.

Dan used to be a Master Instructor here but elected to leave. Google things like Dan John forum and/or Dan John web site and you'll find him.

Goblet, chalice, etc. - all the same and all the right idea, no need to pester Dan about that. Let's call it hands at about solar plexus height. Think about why we use a kettlebell for the goblet squat - it's not really about being a heavy weight, it's about serving as a moveable counterbalance, enabling a person to find good squat posture without falling over backwards.

This is, I hope, worth reading on the subject of the goblet squat

Goblet Squat: How To Use It To Move Better, To Become Stronger, and When Not To Use It At All

Note that the first suggestion I give in the article is to look for good squat posture while holding onto a fixed object - the goblet squat represents an increase in difficulty because it requires more stabilization from the user - you're no longer holding onto something you can pull really hard against knowing that it won't move.

-S-

 

[Cearball]

Looking at the options available locally I ended up doing a FMS screen.

Got a 14 .

Commentef that my mobility wasn't too bad.

But I needed to relearn my squat & deadlift pattern while improving my FMS score.

However I don't necessarily have the money to have training sessions at the moment so don't really know when I am going to get around to fixing this.