all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Sweat, dry fasting, and weight loss

michaeltxanderson

Level 1 Valued Member
Do you know why there is a family history of type 2 diabetes?
It's usually labelled as lifestyle dominant but it isn't always an outcome of excess energy and inactivity.
If there is genetic/family history underlying a biological cause ie liver disease? Or is it cultural and environmental ie over eating and sedentary behaviour? Or a mixture of the 2? Or a blended type 1 and type 2?
I'd discuss this with a diabetic specialist.
.....and before embarking on any extreme diet.

Just eat less than you do now. Cut out the crap.

As said by @NorthCoastMiller , exercise is a potent intervention for health. A simple way is to go for a walk after you've eaten and do whatever other more formal exercise you choose and like. And walk more generally....move more, be more active. A low stress ticket. Gentle.

Get a base established. Good eating habits be more active.....why go for some sudden optimisation or extreme?

Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.

A 3 meal a day thing of good food....we all know what that is....and for fat loss, lean protein, fruit and veg. As diverse as possible. Limit starch and fat.

Probably not perfect, nothing is, but very sustainable. Add some energy when and if you need it in the form of starch and/or fat.

Good luck.
I appreciate the response! I'd say try not to jump 3 assumptions ahead, my goal here is information, not a fad extreme diet: that's why I'm posting here instead of trawling YouTube.

For family history, I'm doing research to determine but family relationships are strained right now. Not sure about liver disease but never heard of that being an issue. Being mormon none of my family drank alcohol. Best I can determine is decent but not excessive or consistent exercise: grandfather was a hard worker, potato farmer in youth then bought spuds for Pillsbury. He ran marathons in his 30s, loved to get outside and work with his hands - diet wasn't "junk food" per se with the exception of diet sodas. Diet was largely carbs and starches (duh given the potatoes in our blood, Idaho YES.) He developed diabetes between 45 and 50, had his first heart attack about 65 and went completely downhill from there til his death in his mid eighties.

Father was more sedentary and loved snacking on carbs but we were so poor that junk food was limited and he was regularly out splitting wood or having to work with his hands to keep stuff running (sports medicine was his degree but due to low strength of character that evaporated quickly and he has had underpaid white collar jobs ever since.) He was diagnosed at 45 with type 2, went on a spree of portion control and did a triathlon and lost 60 lbs. Again due to poor strength of character that didn't last, and to this day he's deteriorated though recent years he's improved his diet again.

To answer the specific things I'm trying to get to, my family is also known for being excessively sweaty (common in type 2) and though I've lost 30 lbs, I would still like to shed more fat to do physical goals (pull ups etc.) I'm 191 and 5'7. I do a 16-8 window daily, drink zero caffeine or alcohol and have drank nothing but water plus LMNT for over 4 months for hydration. In addition to S&S I like to run and cycle occasionally and the excess fat isn't helping.

Super thankful for everyone's responses, this is clearly a group like myself that is not content with fads or pop culture fitness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ali

michaeltxanderson

Level 1 Valued Member
When it comes to fat loss, is there really?

Even (non-dry) intermittent fasting has been shown to be nothing special when normalized for caloric intake.

i.e. if you equalize calories, people who used time-restricted eating windows didn't exhibit superior fat loss to those who ate whenever

If we're talking anti-aging and autophagy, everything I've seen is related to caloric restriction, not dehydration.
I've actually read quite contrary data regarding fasting vs. Caloric restriction in Dr. Jason Fung's books, the Obesity Code and the Diabetes Code. Dr. Andrew Huberman covered the relevant studies on the "16-8" fasting method on his podcast Since type 2 is the biggest focus for me, naturally it's where I focus. Parsing some of that data out it seems when people half-a#@ fasting, they get minimal results ESPECIALLY if not COMBINED with low carb high fat or keto diets - I think this is also true on the opposite side of health or fitness journeys for people - once they have achieved a good level of fitness or weight loss, the need for fasting to weight loss is diminished, and can be easily maintained doing 3 meals a day that are whole real food and sans the coca cola or other issues.

Any citations or references to what you're describing that would inform me better?
 

silveraw

Level 7 Valued Member
I've actually read quite contrary data regarding fasting vs. Caloric restriction in Dr. Jason Fung's books, the Obesity Code and the Diabetes Code. Dr. Andrew Huberman covered the relevant studies on the "16-8" fasting method on his podcast Since type 2 is the biggest focus for me, naturally it's where I focus. Parsing some of that data out it seems when people half-a#@ fasting, they get minimal results ESPECIALLY if not COMBINED with low carb high fat or keto diets - I think this is also true on the opposite side of health or fitness journeys for people - once they have achieved a good level of fitness or weight loss, the need for fasting to weight loss is diminished, and can be easily maintained doing 3 meals a day that are whole real food and sans the coca cola or other issues.

Any citations or references to what you're describing that would inform me better?
I wouldn't put too much stock into Dr Fung's books. He is very good at cherry picking data to arrive at his conclusions.

Fasting without caloric restriction doesn't seem to make any difference in any measurable sense: Does the Energy Restriction Intermittent Fasting Diet Alleviate Metabolic Syndrome Biomarkers? A Randomized Controlled Trial - PubMed

This review looks at autophagy to see if there is any difference between CR and IF, and finds that they both seem to have similar levels. This supports the idea that fasting benefits are a result of caloric restriction.

Basically, in terms of weight loss, autophagy, and health markers, IF most likely achieves this through caloric restriction. According to the current research.

If you throw Low Carb and Keto on top of that, you still get the same result as there have been quite a few studies looking at the differences between Keto groups and non keto groups. They all pretty much find there is no measurable difference between them. Dr Kevin Hall has done a lot of these metabolic ward studies.

That said... and since these sort of conversations seem to trigger some people, IF is a great tool if it works for you. Keto is a fine tool if it works for you. But they aren't anything special and have drawbacks to be aware of (IF and LC combined increase the prevalence of eating disorders in women by A LOT, less so in men, but still enough to warrant a disclaimer).

End of the day, you need to find a strategy that works for you. No need to have FOMO about not doing some other strategy since they all, as far as the current research shows, produce benefits via caloric restriction.
 
Last edited:

watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
I've actually read quite contrary data regarding fasting vs. Caloric restriction in Dr. Jason Fung's books, the Obesity Code and the Diabetes Code. Dr. Andrew Huberman covered the relevant studies on the "16-8" fasting method on his podcast Since type 2 is the biggest focus for me, naturally it's where I focus. Parsing some of that data out it seems when people half-a#@ fasting, they get minimal results ESPECIALLY if not COMBINED with low carb high fat or keto diets - I think this is also true on the opposite side of health or fitness journeys for people - once they have achieved a good level of fitness or weight loss, the need for fasting to weight loss is diminished, and can be easily maintained doing 3 meals a day that are whole real food and sans the coca cola or other issues.

Any citations or references to what you're describing that would inform me better?

Fung is not someone I give any credence to.

His ideas are frequently debunked
 

michaeltxanderson

Level 1 Valued Member
I wouldn't put too much stock into Dr Fung's books. He is very good at cherry picking data to arrive at his conclusions.

Fasting without caloric restriction doesn't seem to make any difference in any measurable sense: Does the Energy Restriction Intermittent Fasting Diet Alleviate Metabolic Syndrome Biomarkers? A Randomized Controlled Trial - PubMed

This review looks at autophagy to see if there is any difference between CR and IF, and finds that they both seem to have similar levels. This supports the idea that fasting benefits are a result of caloric restriction.

Basically, in terms of weight loss, autophagy, and health markers, IF most likely achieves this through caloric restriction. According to the current research.

If you throw Low Carb and Keto on top of that, you still get the same result as there have been quite a few studies looking at the differences between Keto groups and non keto groups. They all pretty much find there is no measurable difference between them. Dr Kevin Hall has done a lot of these metabolic ward studies.

That said... and since these sort of conversations seem to trigger some people, IF is a great tool if it works for you. Keto is a fine tool if it works for you. But they aren't anything special and have drawbacks to be aware of (IF and LC combined increase the prevalence of eating disorders in women by A LOT, less so in men, but still enough to warrant a disclaimer).

End of the day, you need to find a strategy that works for you. No need to have FOMO about not doing some other strategy since they all, as far as the current research shows, produce benefits via caloric restriction.
I do find it interesting that my original question about "does anyone have info about dry fasting" became quickly "sounds like a terrible idea" and "here's a bunch of info about why fasting is stupid in comparison with caloric restriction".

A simple non response from everyone since they had no useful info would've sufficed.
 

michaeltxanderson

Level 1 Valued Member
Fung is not someone I give any credence to.

His ideas are frequently debunked

Please read your response again and tell me how any of what you said is useful to me. Especially for how much you post about ideas of people wanting to believe things but not backing them up, your replies are extremely stark of anything but opinions.

Anything concrete that I can read? And then based on new or better information change my opinion?
 

Don Fairbanks

SFG II
Certified Instructor
I've actually read quite contrary data regarding fasting vs. Caloric restriction in Dr. Jason Fung's books, the Obesity Code and the Diabetes Code. Dr. Andrew Huberman covered the relevant studies on the "16-8" fasting method on his podcast Since type 2 is the biggest focus for me, naturally it's where I focus. Parsing some of that data out it seems when people half-a#@ fasting, they get minimal results ESPECIALLY if not COMBINED with low carb high fat or keto diets - I think this is also true on the opposite side of health or fitness journeys for people - once they have achieved a good level of fitness or weight loss, the need for fasting to weight loss is diminished, and can be easily maintained doing 3 meals a day that are whole real food and sans the coca cola or other issues.

Any citations or references to what you're describing that would inform me better?
Speaking of Huberman, you might find his recent podcast with Dr. Chris Palmer interesting.
 

Freddy.Sanchez4234

Level 2 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Sinister
I think you need to try it for yourself and tell your story afterwards. Yes you can listen to all the information but if you’ve never tried it how would you know if it works or not. I student once told me “ try it once and if you don’t like it, you never have to do it again”
 

silveraw

Level 7 Valued Member
I do find it interesting that my original question about "does anyone have info about dry fasting" became quickly "sounds like a terrible idea" and "here's a bunch of info about why fasting is stupid in comparison with caloric restriction".

A simple non response from everyone since they had no useful info would've sufficed.
Sure, I can walk you through my thought process if it helps.
1. question was about if dry fasting is more effective than fasting. Since an answer can only be as good as the question, worthwhile to dig into each part of the question.
2. first you need to figure out how effective fasting is. Thats an easy-ish answer, lots of research on that idea.
3. Then take a look at how much more effective dry fasting is compared to fasting. Since you have roughly an idea of how effective fasting is and how its benefits work, you can then start to figure out what the added benefit of dehydration has on fasting.

Since we know that fasting benefits come from caloric restriction, then we can start trying to ask "what does dehydration add to this?".

As far as anyone can find, pretty much none aside from a video claiming the krebs cycle burns toxins when dehydration is added through some unknown mechanism with no sources cited. Although they did cite a study that found when people don't eat or drink for 5 days they lost weight (but not specifically fat mass) for some reason.

Also I hate that people are so wrapped up in everything being a snowflake that when I say stuff like "Fasting magic happens due to Caloric Restriction" they take it as "Fasting is stupid". CR works... Therefore if fasting causes CR, then fasting works...

Anything concrete that I can read? And then based on new or better information change my opinion?
bro... you quoted quite a few links from me to actual studies that are as concrete as you get.
 

michaeltxanderson

Level 1 Valued Member
Sure, I can walk you through my thought process if it helps.
1. question was about if dry fasting is more effective than fasting. Since an answer can only be as good as the question, worthwhile to dig into each part of the question.
2. first you need to figure out how effective fasting is. Thats an easy-ish answer, lots of research on that idea.
3. Then take a look at how much more effective dry fasting is compared to fasting. Since you have roughly an idea of how effective fasting is and how its benefits work, you can then start to figure out what the added benefit of dehydration has on fasting.

Since we know that fasting benefits come from caloric restriction, then we can start trying to ask "what does dehydration add to this?".

As far as anyone can find, pretty much none aside from a video claiming the krebs cycle burns toxins when dehydration is added through some unknown mechanism with no sources cited. Although they did cite a study that found when people don't eat or drink for 5 days they lost weight (but not specifically fat mass) for some reason.

Also I hate that people are so wrapped up in everything being a snowflake that when I say stuff like "Fasting magic happens due to Caloric Restriction" they take it as "Fasting is stupid". CR works... Therefore if fasting causes CR, then fasting works...


bro... you quoted quite a few links from me to actual studies that are as concrete as you get.
My quote and reply was to watchnerd. Also your first link conclusions isn't at odds with Fungs conclusions in the book, and your second link is behind a pay wall. Have you read Fungs books?
 

silveraw

Level 7 Valued Member

watchnerd

Level 8 Valued Member
Please read your response again and tell me how any of what you said is useful to me. Especially for how much you post about ideas of people wanting to believe things but not backing them up, your replies are extremely stark of anything but opinions.

Anything concrete that I can read? And then based on new or better information change my opinion?

@silveraw has already provided several relevant studies and critiques.

I said *I* don't give Fung much credence.

If you choose to, okay.
 
Last edited:

BrianCF

Level 7 Valued Member
I went down the dry fasting rabbit hole yesterday after reading something on Rusty Moore's site.

There are so many pseudo quacks on the internet with their YouTube vlogs. Fake doctors, etc.

Someone said, a 24 hour dry fast is similar to a 72 hour water fast because the body will use water from fat to rehydrate, blah blah blah.

Here's where it gets crazy. No water period. Don't brush your teeth, no showering, no washing your hands after shooting a deuce. If you do you failed.

Claims of all the aches and pains went away, inflammation gone.

I do think people are overhydrating these days. A gallon of water is completely unnecessary and overkill.

When my father was having fluid in his lungs from congestive heart failure, the doctors told him, no more than 3 glasses of water a day. Last night I cut my water off at 6:45. Glass immediately after dinner. Went to bed at 10:15, Still had to get up at 1:30 to pee, and then slept until 6:30. Lost 2.2 lb/1 kg overnight. Only side effect was morning breath worse than usual. Yes, I did brush my teeth before bed.
 
Top Bottom