Kettlebell Swings and Talk Test

[Ryan T]

Morning all,

I have a question about passing the talk test between EMOM sets and thought I'd see what y'all think.

When I'm estimating that I'm passing the talk test, I usually use a sentence like "I don't have trouble passing the talk test." and if I can do that then I think I'm good even if I have to make a big exhale followed by a big inhale. I'm not rushing the sentence.

But... do you guys think this qualifies as a long enough sentence if I have to do a decent gulp of air afterwards? I'm not huffing and puffing into the next set, but I'm curious what the overall thoughts are.

I suppose someone could probably point out that if you're questioning if you are passing the talk test then you aren't...
Cheers.

 

[pgomez]

I suppose someone could probably point out that if you're questioning if you are passing the talk test then you aren't.

I now tend to favor this view.

In recent times, I've become more generous in the amount of rest I take between sets. However, I don't want the whole workout to take forever, so that keeps me going; but I try hard to focus on resting enough so that I know I can execute excellent reps. If I have any doubts, I wait a bit longer.

I do use a stopwatch to time my entire session, but I turn it around while I'm working so that I can't see it. I want to keep my focus to be on getting better form out of my reps.

Since I've made "good reps" my focus, I've noticed that 1) I've gotten stronger, 2) my total time for a session bounces around from day-to-day, 3) my total time for comparative sessions trends downward, without me having to think about it too much.

This article may be helpful: "Long Rests": A Revolution in Interval Training | StrongFirst

Or this recent one: Your Conditioning Program Does Not Have to be Sport-Specific | StrongFirst from which I liked this quote:

Fattah and Fahmy (2017) studied basketball players using a USRPT-style [Ultra-Short Race-Pace Training] program. This program consisted of sport specific drills with the goal of maximizing the rest periods, so the athlete could perform it at the same level each time. Thus, the goal was not exhaustion, but quick drills with enough rest to perform it again at the same level [emphasis mine]. The comparison group performed the same drills without the emphasis on resting enough to perform it at optimal capacity. As you might expect, the USRPT athletes improved on all outcomes.

 

[offwidth]

HRM

 

[Kettlebelephant]

By the end of each set your breathing will intensify to the point where you can
only say a couple of words. You should be able to engage in normal conversation by the start of
the next set.

That's a quote from Hector Gutierrez Jr. in one of his routines.
Your sentence falls into the first category IMO.
I understand the talk test like Hector, passing it means being able to hold an ongoing conversation, not just a couple of words/one sentence and then needing a very big breath.

 

[Ryan T]

I now tend to favor this view.

In recent times, I've become more generous in the amount of rest I take between sets. However, I don't want the whole workout to take forever, so that keeps me going; but I try hard to focus on resting enough so that I know I can execute excellent reps. If I have any doubts, I wait a bit longer.

Deep down, I'm feeling this way as well, but I get impatient with my workouts as well. A lesson in patience for me...

HRM

I have a fitbit, but the HR doesn't seem to be accurate or at least quick to take readings. Usually by the 6-7 set, if I were to gauge my HR based on feel, I would say it's around 125-130. My MAF HRM is 139.

Your sentence falls into the first category IMO.
I understand the talk test like Hector, passing it means being able to hold an ongoing conversation, not just a couple of words/one sentence and then needing a very big breath.

Makes sense.

I've been doing my best to do deep breathing into the groin in through the nose and when I can out through the nose but it usually ends up out through the mouth.

Awesome responses!

 

[offwidth]

Deep down, I'm feeling this way as well, but I get impatient with my workouts as well. A lesson in patience for me...


I have a fitbit, but the HR doesn't seem to be accurate or at least quick to take readings. Usually by the 6-7 set, if I were to gauge my HR based on feel, I would say it's around 125-130. My MAF HRM is 139.



Makes sense.

I've been doing my best to do deep breathing into the groin in through the nose and when I can out through the nose but it usually ends up out through the mouth.

Awesome responses!

I've heard that Fitbits are notoriously inaccurate, but I have no personal experience.

 

[Matts]

Talk Test was the gold standard for pacing runs in the generations before MAF. If you're running with your buddies, you should be able to banter and carry on while running, without having to pause for breaths or deep breathing. If it matches EMOM, it's a coincidence. It might match what you read on a HRM, but just as easily may not. When you find it, you'll feel the "recharged" state Pavel urges in S&S, and you may have a desire to repeat your workout later in the day (resist that).

 

[Ryan T]

@Matts I usually have no desire to do S&S more than 1x per day. There are however days that I've rested because I felt like my body needed it, but I didn't actually want to rest.

 

[Bret S.]

I have a Polar H10, it works very well. I used to go by feel and by counting heartbeats during A+A. When I started using the HRM it confirmed the 'feel' aspect for me. The following are a few observations I had.

1. My actual HR was 4 to 5 beats higher using the monitor as compared to counting heartbeats.

2. Using nasal breathing I waited until my body got to that 'easy breath' more relaxed and deeper inhale to signal readiness for the next effort. From there 2 or 3 more relaxed breaths and my HR was down. This I confirmed with the monitor as I watched HR drop off quickly.

3. The talk test is subjective, I can talk near my
MAF. Talking with more relaxed breathing is the key for me.

4. If you want answers for your own personal HR monitoring and training strategy get an HRM that works well.

 

[Ryan T]

2. Using nasal breathing I waited until my body got to that 'easy breath' more relaxed and deeper inhale to signal readiness for the next effort. From there 2 or 3 more relaxed breaths and my HR was down. This I confirmed with the monitor as I watched HR drop off quickly.

3. The talk test is subjective, I can talk near my
MAF. Talking with more relaxed breathing is the key for me.

Thank you for the observations! Provided that I am staying under my MAF and can pass the talk test, then I think I'll have to go with that for now.

4. If you want answers for your own personal HR monitoring and training strategy get an HRM that works well.

I stopped trying to use my fitbit. Will have to stick with the low-fi solution for now but thanks for the recommendation!

 

[ali]

I stopped trying to use my fitbit.

Fitbits are rubbish for anything with intensity, or even sometimes without.
I have one and use it as a watch and rhr monitoring - which it is good for.
In a sprint session yesterday - very similar hr output as S&S according to my polar. The hr graph for the fitbit registered my hr as a walk. And on my dog walk, it registers in the 140s - higher than my sprints and S&S and pretty similar to a snatch test!! So wildly inaccurate and makes me wonder really the accuracy of rhr. Still it is good apparently for rhr - a friend tests all wearables out for the British Heart Foundation and compares them to the data of her pacemaker and the fitbit is the most accurate optical sensor. But not for exercise. Nope. It tells the time though, not unlike a watch so at least I'm not late for my cardiologist.

 

[Michael Scott]

So, out of curiosity, which wearable is best to measure hr when exercising? I ask because I have a fitbit, and I am pretty sure the hr displayed when I am exercising is not correct.

Fitbits are rubbish for anything with intensity, or even sometimes without.
I have one and use it as a watch and rhr monitoring - which it is good for.
In a sprint session yesterday - very similar hr output as S&S according to my polar. The hr graph for the fitbit registered my hr as a walk. And on my dog walk, it registers in the 140s - higher than my sprints and S&S and pretty similar to a snatch test!! So wildly inaccurate and makes me wonder really the accuracy of rhr. Still it is good apparently for rhr - a friend tests all wearables out for the British Heart Foundation and compares them to the data of her pacemaker and the fitbit is the most accurate. But not for exercise. Nope. It tells the time though, not unlike a watch so at least I'm not late for my cardiologist.

 

[ali]

I dunno - Polar chest straps are pretty good. as many here use them and recommended too by Phil Maffetone.
I've edited that post 'most accurate' should have had 'optical sensor' after it.

Put it this way....she has boxes and drawers full of state of the art heart rate wearable merchandise worn once.

 

[offwidth]

So, out of curiosity, which wearable is best to measure hr when exercising? I ask because I have a fitbit, and I am pretty sure the hr displayed when I am exercising is not correct.

Unlikely there is a 'best' but both Polar and Suunto have avid followers and have been in the game a long time. I have had several Polar's over the years.

 

[Tobias Wissmueller]

So, out of curiosity, which wearable is best to measure hr when exercising? I ask because I have a fitbit, and I am pretty sure the hr displayed when I am exercising is not correct.

IMHO it is not the brand but the underlying technology. Take Polar for example. They have recently released the OH1 which has optical sensors, like most wearables (FitBit, AppleWatch, etc.). They also have the H10 as their latest model using electrodes.

With electrodes you get a more accurate and especially timely feedback as with an optical sensor.

I have both models and did swing sessions with them. While I use the H10 daily and love it, I have quickly given up on the OH1 because it is too slow and has difficulties registering quick changes of the heart rate.

It is good though when doing activities with a more or less constant heart rate, like riding a bike. I use it on my daily commutes with the bike from time to time and am really happy with it for this application.

 

[Michael Scott]

Thank you @offwidth & @Tobias Wissmueller for your responses. I guess it is time for some research on my end. I appreciate the information.

 

[King Cobra Fit]

I've found that any Wrist based HR measure is inaccurate for HR with doing intervals. If you want a good representation for HR while working a chest strap that speaks with your monitor is best.

I have a Garmen Fenix 3 with wrist based HR and I also have a chest strap which I use when practicing S&S or any kind of Strong Endurance (A+A) style training. I love this watch.

 

[offwidth]

@Michael Scott
The sky is the limit with these devices. It depends a bit on how you want to use it and for what. The fancy ones will do HRV, Bluetooth to your computer. Give nice graphs. Have GPS capabilities. And more.
The simple ones will measure your heart rate...

There have been a number of threads on HRM's

 

[Ryan T]

@Michael Scott
The sky is the limit with these devices. It depends a bit on how you want to use it and for what. The fancy ones will do HRV, Bluetooth to your computer. Give nice graphs. Have GPS capabilities. And more.
The simple ones will measure your heart rate...

There have been a number of threads on HRM's

I saw some of the reviews and recommendations in the equipment forum

 

[CMarker]

Awesome discussion.

The talk test is great if you want to stay out of glycolysis. There are many reasons we want to stay out of glycolysis (e.g., learn to burn fat more efficiently as a fuel source, avoid acidosis which can cause neural signaling issues, free radical formation, and maybe long-term mitochondrial damage). For the most part, our aerobic system can clean up the messy parts of the glycolytic system if we have enough rest. We mostly want to limit getting into acidosis. However, our body has this energy system and there are some benefits to using it in a limited fashion. I wrote another post recently discussing the idea that we can get glycolytic at times as long as we make sure we recover.

Thanks P.Gomez for pulling the below information:
Or this recent one: Your Conditioning Program Does Not Have to be Sport-Specific | StrongFirst from which I liked this quote:

Fattah and Fahmy (2017) studied basketball players using a USRPT-style [Ultra-Short Race-Pace Training] program. This program consisted of sport specific drills with the goal of maximizing the rest periods, so the athlete could perform it at the same level each time. Thus, the goal was not exhaustion, but quick drills with enough rest to perform it again at the same level [emphasis mine]. The comparison group performed the same drills without the emphasis on resting enough to perform it at optimal capacity. As you might expect, the USRPT athletes improved on all outcomes.