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Kettlebell Swings/snatches vs. C2 rower

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@El Cid
Was there any big difference between rower and skierg for you?
I'm asking because at my old CF gym I luckily had access to both, but the skierg gassed me much, much quicker than the rower despite my 500m split being way slower than the split on the rower.
 
aciampa said:
@Steve Freides I know you're busy, but if you have the time: what is the difference between walking and running? Philosophically, not physically. You walk everyday.
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And I know _you're_ busy, and I always have time to have a conversation with you, Al.

Philosophically - for me, there is history. When I first started jogging in my mid-20's, I was about as opposite of "born to run" as one could be. I actually ran with my arms swinging forward on the same side as my forward leg - completely miscoordinated. Someone had to point it out to me before I realized it. Running has never been easy for me. There's never been such a thing as truly easy, relaxed running, although Lord knows I did my homework and understood what the idea was supposed to be. In particular, I was a very heavy heel striker, and I also managed to contract a pretty miserable case of runner's knee in both knees early on. I find LSD running much like I imagine someone banging a two by four on the top of my head over and over might be.

Paradoxically, I love to sprint, although I don't do that now, either. In fact, every time I would come back from a running layoff, I learned that the way I did it best was to start out running fast and just a few minutes at a time, and gradually work that back to longer distances at a slower pace. I've always been quick and, as a kid playing backyard football and the like, no one could ever catch me.

I have a history with walking, too - when I was a regular runner, I always hated walking for reasons I couldn't explain to this day - somehow it was the "other" gait and I wasn't interested because I just wanted to run. But once I stopped running and started lifting, I started enjoying walking. And somewhere along the way, I realized - no doubt after reading something short, simple and brilliant by Pavel - that walking was where I could find the "other side" of strength training, a physical activity that I could perform with a focus on simply being relaxed, and I really came to embrace walking and how great it made me feel. Walking is as close to dancing as my body will likely come in terms of being graceful while moving through space, and I do try to walk gracefully: tall, relaxed, flowing.

Or by, "run", did you mean, "forced sprinting" like on a training schedule?
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-S-
 
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Darren Best said:
I keep reading about how great of a training tool the C2 rower is.

So I'm curious as to what people that have used it and done extensive kettlebell swings and snatches think of it.

Do you think one or the other offers a superior training effect?

Similar or different?

Do you notice any difference good or bad in overall cardio response, aerobic, glycolytic and anaerobic?
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I don't have the C2, but have logged many hours on a Kettler Kadet rower with "true sculling action". Though a piston machine, the ROM on the Kettler is great and mimics very closely the mechanics of a rowing scull. I bought mine well over a decade ago prior to adopting the KB, at the time my heel spurs were killing me and a seated rower made a lot of sense. It is a great workout, similar if not a bit better maybe than jumping rope with a heavy rope.

My biggest problem was as I increased my cadence, the constant joint traction on my knees as I pulled back into position eventually caused a great deal of pain in my knees. Overall the swing hits many of the same movement patterns, and combined with some upper body work I find the KB to be far superior in terms of tailoring the workout. It also activates the core better through the entire ROM, improves balance under load, and your tailbone won't ache no matter how much you do.

Its a good alternative but not quite there - perfect for folks who aren't going to invest the time to learn some of the more technically demanding modalities or are rehabbing/dealing with chronic limiting injuries. For warmups/downs I prefer jumping rope or light heavy bag.

Martin
 
Kettlebelephant said:
@El Cid
Was there any big difference between rower and skierg for you?
I'm asking because at my old CF gym I luckily had access to both, but the skierg gassed me much, much quicker than the rower despite my 500m split being way slower than the split on the rower.
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Yes the Ski Erg did have that effect on me. I suspect there is less "float/coast" on the erg than the rower due to the upright nature and dealing with gravity. Also, I suspect the greater quadriceps recruitment may be part of the reason. I'm only speculating here based on how anything that is like a squat seems to create more oxygen debt than things that are hip hinge based IME.
 
@El Cid and @Kettlebelephant I think it may have something to do with the fact that the upper body is weaker than the lower body or even an upper/lower body combo exercise like rowing. The Skierg is primarily upper body and abs. Interesting article here:

The Upper Body in Skiing

I've done a "poor man's" version of the Skierg using rubber tubing with handles. I obviously can't tell how far I've gone or how much power I'm generating so I just go for time. It works okay. I actually XC ski in winter. I enjoy XC as much as, and sometimes more than, downhill. Everything XC ski is cheaper from the trail pass (aka lift ticket for downhill) to the equipment. Brutal workout, especially if you go skate style.
 
Steve Freides said:
And I know _you're_ busy, and I always have time to have a conversation with you, Al.

Philosophically - for me, there is history. When I first started jogging in my mid-20's, I was about as opposite of "born to run" as one could be. I actually ran with my arms swinging forward on the same side as my forward leg - completely miscoordinated. Someone had to point it out to me before I realized it. Running has never been easy for me. There's never been such a thing as truly easy, relaxed running, although Lord knows I did my homework and understood what the idea was supposed to be. In particular, I was a very heavy heel striker, and I also managed to contract a pretty miserable case of runner's knee in both knees early on. I find LSD running much like I imagine someone banging a two by four on the top of my head over and over might be.

Paradoxically, I love to sprint, although I don't do that now, either. In fact, every time I would come back from a running layoff, I learned that the way I did it best was to start out running fast and just a few minutes at a time, and gradually work that back to longer distances at a slower pace. I've always been quick and, as a kid playing backyard football and the like, no one could ever catch me.

I have a history with walking, too - when I was a regular runner, I always hated walking for reasons I couldn't explain to this day - somehow it was the "other" gait and I wasn't interested because I just wanted to run. But once I stopped running and started lifting, I started enjoying walking. And somewhere along the way, I realized - no doubt after reading something short, simple and brilliant by Pavel - that walking was where I could find the "other side" of strength training, a physical activity that I could perform with a focus on simply being relaxed, and I really came to embrace walking and how great it made me feel. Walking is as close to dancing as my body will likely come in terms of being graceful while moving through space, and I do try to walk gracefully: tall, relaxed, flowing.



-S-
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Thanks for taking the time, Steve!
 
MikeTheBear said:
I can't seem to access my copy of the Cardio Code on my Mac - it's gone. So I'm working off of memory and Andrew Read's review of the book.

In a nutshell, here is why traditional forms of cardio differ from weight training (from Andrew's review):

During weight training, regardless of the lifts used, you simply can’t engage your muscles quickly enough to cause the action that takes place during traditional cyclic forms of cardio. When muscles are engaged for long periods they actually cut off blood flow, which lowers the amount of oxygen able to pass through them and decreases the intensity of work you’re doing when compared to your VO2 max. In other words, just having a high heart rate is not indicative of getting a cardio workout.

From what I remember reading in the book, when lifting heavy, the intense muscle contractions put pressure on your blood vessels which causes an increase in blood pressure which causes the heart to work harder. This is not pathological because it's not like have high blood pressure all the time. However, over time, this causes the heart wall to thicken and lose elasticity without increasing the volume of the LV. An increase in volume of the LV happens only with traditional cardio. Why does this happen? Because it happens. It's how our bodies work. Unfortunately our bodies don't work how we would like them to work. The good news is that adding traditional cardio will undo some of this loss of elasticity and increase the volume of the LV to hold more blood.

What about a high rep snatch protocol like in Viking Warrior Conditioning? The reason high rep snatches can produce heart muscle adaptations similar to traditional cardio is that the weight used will be light or relatively light for the trainee. This means that the muscle contractions do not result in the same blood occlusion that comes from lifting (relatively) heavy. I've inserted the word "relative" here because it depends on the person. I've watched Ivan Denisov do 238 snatches in 10 minutes with a 32 kg. I have no idea whether that type of effort was "cardio," but I can say for sure that no one can lift for 10 minutes non-stop and rely only on the ATP-CP energy system and probably could not rely solely on the glycolytic energy system. Some of his effort was aerobic, which meant he needed blood flow to his muscles in order to bring oxygen to those muscles.

So it's not that it's completely impossible to do cardio with weights, it's that the parameters need to be specific. If you think about it, all traditional forms of cardio involve "lifting weight" to some degree. It's just that the weight is our own bodyweight plus some equipment such as a bike for cyclists. The amount of force needed to move our bodies in traditional long-effort cardio training is fairly low which allows the blood to flow through our muscles. If you were to try and duplicate this effort with weights you would be using a very light weight and lifting for several minutes straight. This is different from most circuit training programs which have you go through any where from 2 to 4 exercises doing 8 to 15 reps. The weight used is too heavy and the duration is not long enough. Most circuit training programs will increase work capacity but will not allow for an increase in LV volume.
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Thanks, Mike and that's a great summary of the situation. But I still don't grasp why (say) clean and pressing with both arms for reps doesn't lead to the some of the same adaptations as rowing as they both seem strength-endurance based, and the duration of the contraction (at least in the pressing part) is similar. Maybe it is because the force on the muscles in the clean and press is more sequential (harder hams/glutes for the clean, triceps/delts,/pecs/abs for the press) whereas, in a rowing stroke, all muscles contract pretty-much simultaneously.

As you can tell I am not biomechanist, here...And I am just thinking about it from a theoretical viewpoint because I find exercise physiology fascinating. And I still clean and press, but hate rowing and will never do it! :)
 
Steve Freides said:
I will run when something chases me.
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I have said that many times! And I used to run quite a bit, mountain trails mostly and some football stadium stair intervals

North Coast Miller said:
My biggest problem was as I increased my cadence, the constant joint traction on my knees as I pulled back into position eventually caused a great deal of pain in my knees. Overall the swing hits many of the same movement patterns, and combined with some upper body work I find the KB to be far superior in terms of tailoring the workout. It also activates the core better through the entire ROM, improves balance under load, and your tailbone won't ache no matter how much you do.
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The way learned to row (from that teacher of all poor form for everything YouTube) was that the return after the stroke is done quite passively and all effort expended should be on the drive of the stroke i.e. when straightening legs etc.
 
MikeTheBear said:
@El Cid and @Kettlebelephant I think it may have something to do with the fact that the upper body is weaker than the lower body or even an upper/lower body combo exercise like rowing. The Skierg is primarily upper body and abs. Interesting article here:

The Upper Body in Skiing
Click to expand...
Thx for that article!
Answered a question that I had in mind a lot of times, but never really knew where to search for an answer.
Btw skate style all the way, classic is so...:p
 
In strength matters magazine Kenneth wrote article what is the difference between snatches/swings and normal cardio, i need to find this magazine :>
 
@Kettlebelephant Nice to meet another XC skier! I'm always looking for creative and inexpensive solutions for training during the summer. Had some rollerskis once but I had no safe place to use them, so rubber tubing it is.
 
Kettlebelephant said:
Thx for that article!
Answered a question that I had in mind a lot of times, but never really knew where to search for an answer.
Btw skate style all the way, classic is so...:p
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:) You can't skate through kilometers of uphill powder to get to a backcountry telemark run:)
 
My biggest problem was as I increased my cadence, the constant joint traction on my knees as I pulled back into position eventually caused a great deal of pain in my knees. Overall the swing hits many of the same movement patterns, and combined with some upper body work I find the KB to be far superior in terms of tailoring the workout. It also activates the core better through the entire ROM, improves balance under load, and your tailbone won't ache no matter how much you do.



GeoffreyLevens said:
The way learned to row (from that teacher of all poor form for everything YouTube) was that the return after the stroke is done quite passively and all effort expended should be on the drive of the stroke i.e. when straightening legs etc.
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I tried to just let it, but kept wanting to drive up the cadence, and I also suspect some of it was from driving hard and the weight of the seat and me slamming back on its own was enough to cause issues over time. I'm a bit of a monkey on some pieces of equipment...

If I ever use it a primary fitness mode again I'll build a ramp so gravity helps with the reset and I will have to pull only a little. Overall it is a great piece of gear, I recommend anyone looking into a rower to check it out (Kettler Kadet). One of the cool things I used to do with mine is put a pad on the foot-rests, sit facing the machine from front to back, and drive the rower handles to work my pecs, abs - gives the counterpoint "push" to the rowing "pull". I even would drive across with one hand to really active obliques, serratus etc. You can't do that with other machines.
 
North Coast Miller said:
My biggest problem was as I increased my cadence, the constant joint traction on my knees as I pulled back into position eventually caused a great deal of pain in my knees. Overall the swing hits many of the same movement patterns, and combined with some upper body work I find the KB to be far superior in terms of tailoring the workout. It also activates the core better through the entire ROM, improves balance under load, and your tailbone won't ache no matter how much you do.

I tried to just let it, but kept wanting to drive up the cadence, and I also suspect some of it was from driving hard and the weight of the seat and me slamming back on its own was enough to cause issues over time. I'm a bit of a monkey on some pieces of equipment...
Click to expand...
What I did, prompted by some youtube video, was several sessions using the foot plates but NOT the straps. That way there is no possible way to pull yourself back in. Worked like magic and now though I use them, I could comfortably work without straps...
 
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