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Kettlebell Swings/snatches vs. C2 rower

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Digging this forum back up because I found it to be very interesting... so for someone who trains very SF style of low reps-heavy weights and some S&S and the like (obviously a bit different for every training cycle), what would be a "minimum effective dose" for improving heart health via heart elasticity? I'm pretty sure there isn't a conclusive answer but those of you educated in the area and familiar with Kenneth's work, what would you say to this? I greatly prefer low rep strength training, S&S conditioning, and occasionally some intelligently programmed glycolytic work such as the one program in KB strong or kb muscle. So what would you recommend in order to improve heart elasticity for long term heart health that ideally doesn't take hours upon hours every week? Thanks!
 
Hello,

@NoahMarek
You have plenty of options (fortunately):
> 2 or 3 running sessions a week using MAF pace
> 2 or 3 swing sessions a week (using talk test / MAF HR, etc...)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I think the rower is the best cardio machine there is. But personally I would always prefer KBs. Just my 2 cents
 
If you like KBs then you can buy Kenneth's Viking Warrior Conditioning and do the VO2max program. The Kindle edition is now only $9.00 so not a huge investment but the information in there is really good. If you'd prefer a hard copy let me know and I'll make you a deal because I prefer all my books on Kindle these days.

Otherwise, some running or any other "traditional" aerobic activity a few times a week will work.
 
The rower is a great way to get LSD cardio without killing joints, at least for me. I like using KB's for power and strength endurance.
 
@MikeTheBear Does Kenneth Still stand behind that program? I know it would probably not be as effective as doing LSD but I like kettlebells and I like time efficient training so that might be a program for me to do in the future.
 
@NoahMarek Having read VWC and Cardio Code, I did not see a conflict. VWC is not "circuit training." The point of VWC is to elicit positive cardiovascular adaptations and to increase VO2max. In the Cardio Code KJ placed various exercises on a continuum. On one end was "pure" cardio and on the other was weight training. KB snatches according to the VWC protocol were about in the middle.

As I posted earlier in the thread:

I don't think KJ's criticism of "lifting weights faster" conflicts with his advice in Viking Warrior Conditioning. As I recall, in making the criticism KJ was calling out a specific Website that basically sold programs that were variations of circuit training and said that their way of lifting weights faster resulted in strength and cardio fitness. It is true that VWC is based on "snatching faster," but it is not a cookie cutter circuit training program. It sets out specific parameters for each person as determined by a pre-program test. The reason it works is that the weight used is (or should be) light enough to prevent the increases in blood pressure that cause the negative heart muscle adaptations that happen when using heavy weights. The key is load and pacing.
 
offwidth said:
More thread hijacking here but....
I unfortunately live in a flat part of the world. Yet, I train to climb mountains. The humble 12" box step is a great tool. Especially when done in mountain boots and wearing a pack. Typically I try to get at least two sessions a week in the months leading up to a climbing trip. I shoot for 1,000' to 1,200' per session. It's not the same as going up a hill outdoors, but it does the job at zero cost. It is mind-numbing however...
Click to expand...
Could you go into more detail about the step ups? Do you alternate legs or do a certain number of reps then switch? Is there anything in particular to know?

I'm thinking of giving this a try. I don't get out hiking as much as I would like but want to be in shape for it when I do.
 
the hansenator said:
Could you go into more detail about the step ups? Do you alternate legs or do a certain number of reps then switch? Is there anything in particular to know?

I'm thinking of giving this a try. I don't get out hiking as much as I would like but want to be in shape for it when I do.
Click to expand...
I am not 'offwidth' but I have used a somewhat similiar program for those severe weather days when I could not get out side.
I often did side steps - I would stand on the box, lower my left leg off to the left of the box and touch the ground. Come back up and repeat to right side so easier to get a left right rythm. I also usually used smal handweights and curled or pressed in coordination with legs. Weights of 3-5 lbs.
If I was doing regular step ups I would set a tracker/timer to ping every minute and alternate to opposite foot.
Sometimes I would stepup onto the box and over to front of box and back just to do something different. Careful stepping backwards onto box tho. Easy to catch your heel and fall backwards.
Easy to do this when you watch TV to alleviate boredom somewhat.
I have used the stairs in my house as well- single step, double step, hops, single leg hops, sideways single leg hops( both-sides ie inside and outside of leg to stairs) hopping or leaping from one side of stairs to the other as you go up. ( single, double or triple step depending on fitness)
These variations can be very intense but extremely good for balance and agility. And again can be done with small hand weights. Can also be extremely boring if just doing single/double step LSD, but after awhile your mind compensates by wandering and time flies.
I now have a versa climber but like all machines it has its limitations.

Hopefully this is clear.
 
Twa2w said:
Weights of 3-5 lbs.
Click to expand...

This was the original premise behind Heavyhands developed by the late Leonard Schwartz. I am old enough to remember Heavyhands from the '80s. They died as an "80s fad" but a few years ago Marty Gallagher revived the idea. I'm glad he did. I believe Marty said that Heavyhands died for two reasons: because people used them incorrectly and because people used them correctly. The "incorrect" users just sort of carried them around like a ridiculously light farmers walk. They obviously saw no results from this and ended up abandoning the system as not effective. The "correct" users, those who actually pumped the weights vigorously, realized that this was hard work and not your "6 minute abs." They stopped because it was hard work.

They key is starting out with light weights. This is exactly what Kenneth Jay was talking about in the Cardio Code. Leave your ego at the door, start with 3 lbs. (or less), and pump the weights with your arms while walking or, in your case, doing step ups. As fitness increases, you can and should increase the weight. Len Schwartz wrote about one person who worked up to using 15 lbs. in each hand. That's impressive. I've walked with 3lbs. each hand and after a few minutes things get brutal. Len Schwartz and Heavyhands were the real deal.
 
MikeTheBear said:
This was the original premise behind Heavyhands developed by the late Leonard Schwartz. I am old enough to remember Heavyhands from the '80s..... Len Schwartz and Heavyhands were the real deal.
Click to expand...
Yes I agree. I have 1,3,5,7 and 10 lb heavyhands. I use these while watching TV. I also use them outside on my walks - usually 5 lbs, occasionally 7 lbs. Get some looks while doing the double ski pole motion or the ohp. I do medleys of different moves. At over age 60, I can hike longer and faster than my 22 year old son and his friends. Keeps the weight down too.
Keeps me in shape for both downhill and cross country skiing depending on the moves I do. Almost everyone I ski with is younger and I can usually outlast them.
Cheers
 
Twa2w said:
Keeps me in shape for both downhill and cross country skiing
Click to expand...

Schwartz came up with Heavyhands based on XC skiing using all 4 limbs. Interestingly, I feel I get in better shape for XC by walking with 3 lbs. weights than from running.
 
the hansenator said:
Could you go into more detail about the step ups? Do you alternate legs or do a certain number of reps then switch? Is there anything in particular to know?

I'm thinking of giving this a try. I don't get out hiking as much as I would like but want to be in shape for it when I do.
Click to expand...
@the hansenator
Good question...
The answer is both. Sometimes I will lead with one leg or the other for some count. Other times I will alternate leading legs on each step. For my needs it works better if I vary somewhat at random. Key points however... both feet need to be on top of the box on the top portion of the rep, and both feet on the ground for the bottom portion of the rep for it to count.
You can do these naked or weighted. Typically I would wear a pack and mountain boots. I also use a 'clicker-counter' to keep track. My box is exactly 12". So 1,000 steps = 1,000' and so on. It's hard to keep count over 1,000 (at least for me, it's hard over 10)
 
Great thread. I have learned a lot!

A few questions:

1) Cardio continuum: Someone mentioned Snatches. I assume this means high rep and will build/stretch the LV. Is this single bells or double?

2) Where do swings fall on the continuum? Again high rep? Single or double? LV adaptations?

3) Where is the cardio continuum found?

Thanks
 
Mark Kidd said:
3) Where is the cardio continuum found?
Click to expand...

This was something Kenneth Jay had in his Cardio Code book. As I mentioned I can no longer access my electronic copy so can't give you a page. I believe KJ's continuum was something he created and not something that was peer-reviewed and accepted by all exercise scientists, but given KJ's background I bet it is fairly accurate.


Mark Kidd said:
1) Cardio continuum: Someone mentioned Snatches. I assume this means high rep and will build/stretch the LV. Is this single bells or double?

2) Where do swings fall on the continuum? Again high rep? Single or double? LV adaptations?
Click to expand...

Hate to sound like I'm trying to promote KJ's books but his Viking Warrior Conditioning will tell you how to do the snatches to build heart health. You actually need to complete a snatch test so the protocol will be somewhat customized for you. Basically high-rep, light KB, single KB snatches. The book also explains why he choose snatches instead of swings.

For reference, back when I took the test, my protocol was to do 7 snatches in 15 seconds with one arm, rest 15 seconds, 7 snatches in 15 seconds with the other arm, rest 15 seconds, and so on. There is no set number of these sets or rounds that I needed to perform but what based on individual ability. The goal, however, was to keep this up for 40 minutes, so 80 sets.

In Cardio Code KJ placed snatches done Viking Warrior Conditioning-style around the middle of the cardio continuum. I image swings would be there as well.
 
@MikeTheBear

Thanks! You answered another question I just thought of...was Viking Bell based. I take it the answer is yes.

Thanks again
 
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