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Old Forum T-Nation 400 lb swing

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ZacZech

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Has anybody read the article written by Max Shank for T-Nation? I thought it was a very good article and I liked the idea of swinging for strength. But he said something about perfect form zealots needing to put their protractors away, and stuff like that, and it gave me pause. That didn't sound right to me, is he saying that its ok to throw form out the window in the name of swinging heavier? Or am I misinterperating it? Any thoughts on this? I have a tremendous amount of respect for Max, and I thought the article was really good, but I'm struggling with this part, anybody have some insight?

 

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/400_pound_kettlebell_swings
 
Great article!

It's like when you watch a video on YouTube, or equivelant, and you see a guy deadlifting 800lbs. Then see a bunch of people underneath commenting and picking at his form because it wasn't perfect!

What they fail to realise is that the guy is deadlifting 800lbs. Who cares if his form is inch perfect. Its probably twice the weight any of those posters can lift. Just shut up and give the guy props for the lift.

Thats my interpretation. Stop making excuses and try swinging heavy.

 

Sam.
 
Oh and the last sentence wasn't aimed at yourself, but a generalisation. We should all be swinging heavier, at some point.
 
Hello Zac,

That didn’t sound right to me, is he saying that its ok to throw form out the window in the name of swinging heavier?

Sam is on the money. A very heavy lift just isn't going to look very pretty. I do have to agree with the people commenting on the article though if what he's doing in the video could even be called a swing. Not that it matters, really, what matters is what effect it has on his body... Something I'd also be curious to know.
 
I see what you're saying Sam, that makes sense to me, I've never been one to critique someone with an 800lb DL when mine is in the mid 300s so I guess if you liken it to that situation, it makes sense. I just wonder, at what point do we stop having to earn our progressions, only going as heavy as we can swing with good technique. I'm not gonna have one of my clients "swinging" a 32kg when they can barely swing a 16kg with good form.
 
I think there needs to be a distinction between "standard" and "form".

A bad "standard" will allow for more weight, but a bad "form" will result in reducing the amount of weight able to be lifted.

Maybe that is what is meant. People get hung up on following a precise standard for no reason. But the form must be good to move heavier weights.

 
 
That makes sense, I can dig it. Thanks for the responses and the clarification guys.
 
I'm going to be the guy that kind of disagrees.  That individual that deadlifts 800lbs is likely competing at some level.  Even if they aren't, they have spent many hours under the bar learning the lift and finding their groove.  Also, comparing a deadlift to a swing is much different.  The deadlift can go wrong, but the only forces involved are vertical - the  bar only goes up and down.  The swing (whether heavy or light) is entirely different.  First, it is ballistic.  Second, it has a deceleration phase.  Third, there is a horizontal componenent to it. 

It would be better to compare the swing to what olympic lifters do - not what is often seen as olympic lifts done wrong.  Olympic lifters are all ballistic, with impecible form.  Once they are getting very close to their PR's you may begin to see a slight deviation in their technique but it will be very slight.  If their technique isn't good enough, the lift doesn't happen. 

The addition of a deceleration phase is also HUGE.  Forces are magnified significantly.  Bad form here will caue injury.  Not if, but when.  Finally, is the horizontal portion - the part where the bell is truly trying to pull you forward and backwards.  Again, bad form here will cause injury.  Adding this to the deceleration phase is a recipe for disaster.

Now, don't read this as me being against heavy swings - I'm not.  Actually, I am a big fan of them.  I don't, however, see much benefit of swinging more than your body weight.  Loads that high should be deadlifted.  I know, someone out there is going to make the arguement of "I'm going for strength gains, not power".  Great, you totally picked the wrong tool then and didn't help your arguement.  The swing is ballistic.  Ballistics are not the best tool for strength - yes there can be carryover, but if you want strength gains deadlift or squat. (Now, there are exceptions to this - for example people that because of their history can no longer do heavy squats or deadlifts.  But these are the exceptions, not the rule).   Finally, and here is the kicker - what is the reward of swinging that heavy?  You can set a world record, or win a competetion with a really heavy deadlift so the reward can outweigh the risk.  I'm not aware of a heavy swing competition, or world records in this event.
 
I’m going to be the guy that kind of disagrees.  That individual that deadlifts 800lbs is likely competing at some level.  Even if they aren’t, they have spent many hours under the bar learning the lift and finding their groove.  Also, comparing a deadlift to a swing is much different.  The deadlift can go wrong, but the only forces involved are vertical – the  bar only goes up and down.  The swing (whether heavy or light) is entirely different.  First, it is ballistic.  Second, it has a deceleration phase.  Third, there is a horizontal componenent to it.
The more precise terms are that deadlifts involve more compression forces and the swing involves more shear forces. This is more of an issue for the spine than anything as far as I know.

For form, watch Bill Kazmaier, especially his deadlift attempts (the first one is red lighted, and he lowers the bar very slowly in the second attempt just to show the judges). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4FMbKDSc_I

He has a shoulder injury in this video, yet, his form is great. But I think the issue with form degrading in max lifts is not the form going, but the effects of a heavy weight. The effect of the weight on the body makes a difference. For example, one can do a press the same way with light and heavy weights, but the effect of the weight on one's body will cause some visible difference.

So, I do not think "form" truly degrades in the heaviest lifts, just that at a certain point, there is a visible difference in the body under a heavy load, but the form must be perfect.

I am not a fan of two handed swings. Either the weight is too light and it is just cardio work, or the weights are heavy, and putting massive shear forces on the spine. The weightlifting swing and GS swing are very different, and the hardstyle two handed swing is a weird hybrid.

(Yes, I know of all the hardstyle swing studies and such, but I do think that is a roundabout way to get the benefits of what one is doing.)
 
Brandon you make some great points.

Especially in respect to what is the benefit of swinging that heavy. As you say, there is no swing competition.

I might add that my mention of the 800lbs deadlift wasnt as a comparison to the swing though. Sorry for the confusion. I was simply "cherry-picking" a heavy movement, and the DL popped into my head.

My point was that when you watch a person accomplish a feat of strength such as that and all you see is people picking at their form. Rather than complimenting that person on a great lift.

After reading your post, I realise what your saying about when going "that" heavy, the deadlift should be used and not swings. That makes sense.

So what do you consider the line? You mentioned about swinging your bodyweight?

 

Sam
 
HerrMannelig,

I don't understand how there are shear forces in the swing.  Maybe I'm missing something.  The essence of the swing is at the back, where you catch and reverse the inertia.  At that point, the bell is pulling you diagonally, exactly in line with the arm or arms and the spine.  So it seems to me that it's compression loading on the spine.  If a person was in the identical body position doing a quarter-squat with a barbell on his shoulders, then there would be shear forces.

If I understand correctly, this is the basic model of healthy movement -- stable spine, move at the hips.

I thought the livespill comments were fair enough, and there was a crazy block-lifting video worth watching.  I'm also paying close attention to what Brandon says.

Personally I find 60-66% of bodyweight is the heaviest it makes sense to go -- at least for now.
 
Shear forces are going to be present in both the deadlift and the swing. There are also shear forces with the squat, jumping and running. Shear forces alone aren't bad. Shear forces in the presence of instability are the problem-things move and tissues are loaded in a manner that leads to injurData stable spine and mobile hips are the key. Out of all the different swing styles, the hard style swing is very safe for the back when done correctly. When done improperly nothing is safe. McGill has studied Pavel and support the spine safety component of the hard style swing. He even uses a cable pull thru move that mimics the swing as a way to train the spine.

 

Purely based on speculation, I think  anything above body weight is counter productive.  This is because of the horizontal component. I also unthinkable heavy swings are relative. When I started, the 28k was a heavy swing. Then the 48k was heavy. Now double 48's is my heavy (almost body weight).  Start where you are.
 
I do not have the study on hand. Sorry. I will try to remember it.

But, I agree that swings (in the GS and hardstyle styles) are best in the 30% to 100% of bodyweight, and any heavier, I think one is asking for trouble. For a single rep, in a weightlifting swing, the world records are usually right below bodyweight for the lifters, so naturally, that kind of swing will be necessarily bodyweight or lower.

As for heavy weights, I think if people are wanting to swing a massive amount of weight, they may want to look at barbell hip thrust or glute bridge.

Swinging a weight greater than bodyweight (or indeed, any heavy weight) with two hands is likely asking for a back injury.
 
great thread and excellent discourse between Brandon and HerrMannelig.
 
one thing to add about Max's technique in the video is how much leg he is using to do this. Way more knee flexion than you would find in a lighter swing and probably the only way to do this fairly safely. Max is a master at finding great leverage in any movement he does, and, is we 'reverse engineer' what the best do naturally we should look at his form and technique in this lift.
He not only walks away unscathed by the lift but hops off lightly. that says a lot right there.
 
Thanks Brandon, thats what I was wondering, but didn't have any science to back it up, or any conviction to go with what I was thinking. Congrats on the promotion Brandon, that's awesome.
 
I found the study, and it involved Pavel. I knew it was prominent: http://breakingmuscle.com/kettlebells/scientific-analysis-kettlebell-swing-snatch-and-carry

Very good to read that article for many reasons, and my idea that the forces were greatest at the initiation of the swing.
When done improperly nothing is safe. McGill has studied Pavel and support the spine safety component of the hard style swing. He even uses a cable pull thru move that mimics the swing as a way to train the spine.
I think the issue is not just safety, but efficacy. A swing may be good for some things, but for particular goals, exactly what a swing is doing should be evaluated. We have to watch out for diminishing returns, and of course, safety.

Doing massively heavy swings for training may be like doing high rep barbell snatches (for all I know).
 
For the video (I finally watched it...I usually do not comment on things without reading all the cited resources), it really isn't a "swing".

I think that kind of lift, although "safe" when done with proper body mechanics, is a poor substitute for a hip thrust or glute bridge. An interesting video, but hardly something I think would be good for training.

But, the article did have a good point about heavy swings, but it seems to miss the fact that heavy t-bar swings are done by lifters now. It just isn't something which is a major part of training and it does not involve a kettlebell.
 
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