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Bodyweight Tactical Pullup and Scapula Retraction

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305pelusa

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A bit curious as to whether the Tactical Pullup is supposed to be done with retracted scapulae at the top of the pullup. The Fighter Pullup seems to have protracted scapulae at the top, but this SF article says to retract at the top for the Beast Tamer challenge:
The Keys to Executing a Successful Weighted Tactical Pull-Up

@Karen Smith : I've read through both of your Pullup articles, and you didn't seem to address this:
One Good Rep: How to Perform the Perfect Pull-up

How to Progress Yourself to Your First Pull-up

Just a bit curious. Thanks!
 
@305pelusa, both ways are acceptable. The article you first mention is one person's way of getting their neck to the bar but not the only way.

It's an interesting point you raise; for me, this falls under the heading of "whatever style lets you move the most weight," e.g., you'll see a lot of different body mechanics when you watch competitive deadlifts but they all work.

I will have to play with this the next time I do pull-ups, which I hope will be tomorrow.

-S-
 
@305pelusa, both ways are acceptable. The article you first mention is one person's way of getting their neck to the bar but not the only way.

It's an interesting point you raise; for me, this falls under the heading of "whatever style lets you move the most weight," e.g., you'll see a lot of different body mechanics when you watch competitive deadlifts but they all work.

I will have to play with this the next time I do pull-ups, which I hope will be tomorrow.

-S-
Oh OK. This means that the Tactical Pullup does not necessarily have to be hollow.

I guess I'm just confused as to what constitutes a "Tactical Pullup". Is just a fancy name for a Pullup with overhand thumbless grip and full ROM?

Thanks for the clarification Steve!
 
It's "tactical" because it's useful to a soldier who has to climb over fences, into windows, and the like. And although I've never been a soldier, I imagine that it's more important to be able to climb over a fence or into a window one time while wearing your 50 lbs. of gear than it is to be able to do it repeatedly with less or no added weight.

The tactical pullup and the one you mentioned are both hollow at the start, but the one you mention gives that up at the top as a different approach to getting the throat to the bar.

The tactical, hollow-throughout version is also going to be better preparation for a muscle-up, I'm pretty sure, and again here, there might be practical applications for climbing up and over things.

-S-
 
It's "tactical" because it's useful to a soldier who has to climb over fences, into windows, and the like.

Ok so a Pull-up with a thumbless, overhand is what a Tactical Pullup is then? Regardless of hollow-ness. Gotcha.

And although I've never been a soldier, I imagine that it's more important to be able to climb over a fence or into a window one time while wearing your 50 lbs. of gear than it is to be able to do it repeatedly with less or no added weight.

Then why is the TSC's contest one of max rep Pullups instead of the heaviest Pullup?

The tactical pullup and the one you mentioned are both hollow at the start, but the one you mention gives that up at the top as a different approach to getting the throat to the bar.
A non-hollow Pullup is significantly easier than a normal one (this is regardless of grip). So in the TSC, I'm assuming people are using normal Tactical Pullups instead of hollow Tactical Pullups correct? If the amount of reps is what matters, and the ROM is the same, you'd want to opt for the easiest variations. Correct?

Thank you once again. This clears up a lot and definitely wasn't obvious to me.
 
Contest rules are separate from technique - as long as you touch your throat to the bar from a dead-hang start and don't kip up, it counts. When I think about the "tactical" aspect of a pullup, I'm thinking about getting as high as I can - the "climbing into and over stuff" idea. I sometimes touch the base of my collarbone to the bar, and always aim to have my point of contact be below my Adam's Apple. I do all of my pull-ups weights except when prepping for a TSC, and my focus is 1RM strength.

Why does the TSC test reps instead of 1RM for pull-ups? I didn't design the TSC, but in a nutshell, the idea was to have one event for brute strength that favored heavier competitors, one event for bodyweight that favored lighter competitors, and the snatch, which is almost weight neutral. There are no pure endurance events, but the way strength-endurance is tested is different - in the snatch, multiple sets can be used; in the pullup, one long set, and in the DL, one rep. There's probably a better explanation on the TSC web page. If I was designing it, bw pull-ups for reps wouldn't be my choice. I don't like doing anything for reps - 3 of something is enough for me and all I ever do except when I know I need to add a little muscle, in which case I'll sometimes do 5's, even though 5's are cardio. :)

The very first TSCs, in which I did not participate, had a pistol in them - I don't recall the exact choice of events, though. I think it was the pistol instead of snatches.

Your observations about rep counts are correct - it's up to each competitor to use whatever technique doesn't violate the rules and gets them the most reps. I don't know that the variation you personally find easiest is also going to be easiest for others, but what you use is completely up to you so long as it meets the requirements.

@305pelusa, are you going to enter the April 8, 2017 TSC? I haven't been training specifically for it, but the date falls near enough to one of the heavy days in my DL program that I'm going to show up, get in my planned pull for the day, and just do a few snatches and a few pull-ups. I haven't done a TSC in a few years so I want to leave myself room for improvement. :)

-S-
 
I sometimes touch the base of my collarbone to the bar, and always aim to have my point of contact be below my Adam's Apple.

Steve, I challenge you to touch any part of your chest or throat in a Pullup without retracting your scapulae. I can absolutely get to sternum/upper chest height in a hollow Pullup, but unless I contract my scapulae strongly (and I mean really really tight), I can't actually make contact.

In fact, if you can touch the base of your collarbone and do so without retracted scapulae, I would be absolutely amazed.

The fundamental reason as to why Hollow Pullups develop a Muscle-up better than ones with scapulae retraction, is because if you Hollow correctly, you'll be some distance away from the bar at the top. So the Hollow Pull-up trains to pull the bar away from you, which is what you need if you want to do a Muscle-up (otherwise, you get stuck at the bottom!).

It's just so confusing. Pavel mentions you should keep your scapulae flared like a Fighter AND touch the neck to the bar. I would pay money to see anybody manage those two things at the same time.

Why does the TSC test reps instead of 1RM for pull-ups? I didn't design the TSC, but in a nutshell, the idea was to have one event for brute strength that favored heavier competitors, one event for bodyweight that favored lighter competitors, and the snatch, which is almost weight neutral. There are no pure endurance events, but the way strength-endurance is tested is different - in the snatch, multiple sets can be used; in the pullup, one long set, and in the DL, one rep. There's probably a better explanation on the TSC web page. If I was designing it, bw pull-ups for reps wouldn't be my choice. I don't like doing anything for reps - 3 of something is enough for me and all I ever do except when I know I need to add a little muscle, in which case I'll sometimes do 5's, even though 5's are cardio. :)

The very first TSCs, in which I did not participate, had a pistol in them - I don't recall the exact choice of events, though. I think it was the pistol instead of snatches.

This all makes sense, thank you for the explanation. I appreciate it!

@305pelusa, are you going to enter the April 8, 2017 TSC? I haven't been training specifically for it, but the date falls near enough to one of the heavy days in my DL program that I'm going to show up, get in my planned pull for the day, and just do a few snatches and a few pull-ups. I haven't done a TSC in a few years so I want to leave myself room for improvement. :)

-S-

Oh gosh, not planning on any TSC's anytime soon. I don't DL ever, nor do I Snatch. Maybe one day hehe.
 
Yes, dear? :) I will try some pull-ups on Saturday and have my wife take photos, and we can see what we think about scapulae and the like.

-S-
 
I'm also curious about the finish for the pullup. In the "Best Upper Body Pull" article, there's a picture of Pavel at the top:
http://www.strongfirst.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/pavel-tsatsouline-hollow-pullup.jpg
It looks like he still has that hollow, sunken chest posture at the top, so to reach the bar he's using thoracic and cervical flexion to reach the bar?
If one opts to retract the scapula, you can hit the bar more on the chest with less rounding of upper back and neck, just depending on goals.
I wonder if they got rid of the requirement to actually touch the neck to the bar for TSC: that extra thoracic and cervical flexion doesn't have any beneficial training effect, so why needlessly emphasize a posture that we are already in too much throughout the day.
Karen says to drive the elbows back to get the chest to the bar. I feel like my shoulder blades naturally want to pull back as I do that motion, and perhaps Karen is doing that too?
 
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