TGU vs Waiter's Walk?

watchnerd

Level 5 Valued Member
If one is already doing KB TGU's, especially at a slow pace, is also adding KB waiter's walks a worthwhile addition?

Or, given that they're both static overhead holds with a movement element, are waiter's walks just "more of the same"?
 

watchnerd

Level 5 Valued Member
I like rack carries or the cook drill combined with lots of overhead work
I was contemplating rack carries. They seemed less duplicative relative to TGUs. What do you feel the benefits are?

I hadn't heard of the cook drill before....I usually do suitcase carries for distance on a different day, but that looked interesting.
 

Kyle Kowalczuk

Level 4 Valued Member
@watchnerd
The tgu is actually dynamic stabilization as the joint angles are changing although you aren’t “grinding” with the weight. It is also technically a weighted carry like the waiters walk. “More of the same” isn’t completely true as there are subtle differences. It’s more if specified variety to keep things from getting stale
 

watchnerd

Level 5 Valued Member
@watchnerd
The tgu is actually dynamic stabilization as the joint angles are changing although you aren’t “grinding” with the weight. It is also technically a weighted carry like the waiters walk. “More of the same” isn’t completely true as there are subtle differences. It’s more if specified variety to keep things from getting stale
Yep, makes sense....but if it's an overhead weighted carry like the waiters walk, and the differences are subtle, aren't there diminishing returns to doing both, as opposed to TGU + a different weighted carry?

I've only got so much time to do so many exercises, so I like to pick ones that don't have huge overlap.
 

fractal

Level 6 Valued Member
I was contemplating rack carries. They seemed less duplicative relative to TGUs. What do you feel the benefits are?

I hadn't heard of the cook drill before....I usually do suitcase carries for distance on a different day, but that looked interesting.
More time in the rack :) - which seems to help pressing, front squatting and the strength to stay upright under load. I think I might start mixing in double rack to farmers walks this week actually.
 

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
Rack carry is my favorite. It feels the most “awkward in a good way,” for me compared to waiters. Currently, I favor a mixed rack and suitcase carry. The Cook drill is great, there is also a variation where you reverse the order, which helps save the grip a bit.
 
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Kyle Kowalczuk

Level 4 Valued Member
Yep, makes sense....but if it's an overhead weighted carry like the waiters walk, and the differences are subtle, aren't there diminishing returns to doing both, as opposed to TGU + a different weighted carry?

I've only got so much time to do so many exercises, so I like to pick ones that don't have huge overlap.
Yes absolutely diminishing returns is possible. I think in your case pick the one that is going to keep you motivated the best. They both have significant abilities to teach your body
 

watchnerd

Level 5 Valued Member
Has anybody tried a bottoms up carry?

I don't doubt it's difficult, but at lighter weights, it seems like it would improve a lot of little stabilizer muscles without much total body impact.

Am I wrong?
 

fractal

Level 6 Valued Member
Has anybody tried a bottoms up carry?

I don't doubt it's difficult, but at lighter weights, it seems like it would improve a lot of little stabilizer muscles without much total body impact.

Am I wrong?
Stuart McGill is a big fan of these
 

watchnerd

Level 5 Valued Member
Stuart McGill is a big fan of these
Huh...interesting...he's a back guy, and all the BU carry videos I've seen show a relative light weight held away from the body. I can see it fatiguing the shoulders and arms, but I'm surprised at a major back impact.

There must be more going on there than I thought. I found his article; I'll have to read it:

https://www.backfitpro.com/documents/bottomupart.pdf
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@watchnerd, our purpose on this forum is to help people who are training using our methods. There are many things we teach that may be initially "difficult" for some people, but we wouldn't use them if we felt we lacked the tools to teach them effectively.

The author states, "People spend so much time trying to balance the kettlebell ..." He's not talking about bottoms-up kettlebell work as we teach it at StrongFirst. It helps people press better because it encourages the creation of an overall tighter "platform" from which to press. The same kind of thinking informs our use of the one-legged kettlebell deadlift - it's not an exercise in balance but in tightness, rooting, and strength.

-S-
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Huh...interesting...he's a back guy, and all the BU carry videos I've seen show a relative light weight held away from the body. I can see it fatiguing the shoulders and arms, but I'm surprised at a major back impact.

There must be more going on there than I thought. I found his article; I'll have to read it:

https://www.backfitpro.com/documents/bottomupart.pdf
From that article:

"However, even better was the bottom up carry. Here the bell is held upside down in the bottom up position with the elbow tucked close to the body and the bell beside the head. The core is stiffened to control the bell and prevent it from rotating in the hand."

This is not a weight held away from the body.

-S-
 

watchnerd

Level 5 Valued Member
From that article:

"However, even better was the bottom up carry. Here the bell is held upside down in the bottom up position with the elbow tucked close to the body and the bell beside the head. The core is stiffened to control the bell and prevent it from rotating in the hand."

This is not a weight held away from the body.

-S-
It's away from the body when contrasted to a rack. One has the lower arm and bell touching the torso, the other doesn't.





vs

 
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Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
It's away from the body when contrasted to a rack
A light to moderate weight will allow a position further from the body.

The rack, with a light to moderate weight, can be a position of relatively little tension. The bottoms-up hold/carry requires more tightness than the rack position.

In our teaching progressions, the rack position is a skill, something we test. We use the bottoms-up position as a drill to help the rack position and the press.

-S-
 

watchnerd

Level 5 Valued Member
A light to moderate weight will allow a position further from the body.

The rack, with a light to moderate weight, can be a position of relatively little tension. The bottoms-up hold/carry requires more tightness than the rack position.

In our teaching progressions, the rack position is a skill, something we test. We use the bottoms-up position as a drill to help the rack position and the press.

-S-
Okay.

But what does that tell us about the relative training / conditioning effect and adaptive response of a lighter BU carry vs heavier rack carry?
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
But what does that tell us about the relative training / conditioning effect and adaptive response of a lighter BU carry vs heavier rack carry?
There is no "vs" to be had here. Both are excellent assistance for strength. The bottoms-up clean, without carrying, is an excellent exercise, as is the bottoms-up press. I like both in sets of 5-8 reps with a bell only slightly lighter than I would press. The rack carry is also excellent. Look up the Cook Drill - overhead carry into rack carry into suitcase carry.

Asking which is better is like asking whether it's better to squat or to deadlift - both are good, some people do only one, some people only the other, and each has its place in many training programs.

-S-
 
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