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Old Forum TGU's, GS, and Energy Systems Question

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Guys, here's something from my experience with this as primarily a weightlifter doing aerobic work. I wrote this for eliteFTS awhile ago:

http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/echocardiography-evidence-of-cardiac-output-training/

 
 
Al- I've been thinking about your question as to how much cardio you really need. It's not an easy one because it's a spectrum and who knows where you want to fall on that spectrum.

For a good general fitness, I'd say 2-3 workouts a week for about 2-3 total hours of work.

Workout 1: Warm up skipping rope or jogging about 10 minutes. Then do 2-3 sets of sprints that last about 20-30 seconds. Have an equal work/rest ratio. If you can do it on loose sand, all the better.

Workout 2: Jog for 30-45 minutes at a pace where you have a little trouble talking, but are still able to.

Workout 3: Walk or hike for an hour or so. If you can go make it through some woods or 'off-road', all the better. Get some sun, get some fresh air and don't particularly worry about the pace.

Spread these out through the week to compliment your strength work. You can do any sort of aerobic work you want. Cycling, rowing, swimming, etc. Are all good options, just mind the pace and you'll be good.

 
 
Al,

Zero.

From page 2 of Kettlebell Simple & Sinister:

Simple & Sinister is what Russians call a general preparation program.

*  Simple & Sinister will prepare you for almost anything life could throw at you ...

*  Simple & Sinister will forge a fighter's physique ...

*  Simple & Sinister will give you the strength, the stamina, and the suppleness to recreationally play any sport - and play it well.

What more does "a regular person looking for health & fitness" need?

-S-
 
Steve,

I'm familiar with your position on this topic.  But I'm not convinced that the number of aerobic sessions is as small as zero.

I have to admit, however, that I sometimes forget my population ... for clarity, the majority of my population is active-duty Military, so "regular" means something different to me.  That's not to say that I don't consider or come in contact with "regular" in the sense of the usual sedentary American lifestyle.

In the article that I wrote for Pavel, I cited two studies that discussed greater fatty acid oxidation via high-intensity training (and I think that we might be able extrapolate this to S&S style PCr style training) but not through mitochondrial up-regulation and increased volume, as seen in actual low-intensity, long duration work (LSD).

Now, mitochondrial flexibility is a buzzword in recent research - the "health" of the cell, has been attributed to the function of the mitochondria.  Metabolic flexibility is the ability (or lack) of the cell to make efficient use out of both glucose and fatty acids.  I "think" that LSD once per week for most of us is valuable.

I'm 90% of the way with you, Steve, on this subject, but I also consider the diabetics, cardiac patients, obese patients, and the generally ill-health retiree population that I work with as well.  My hands are tied with prescribing S&S at this point in their training career.  So, we have to start somewhere.

I apologize again that I sometimes forget the context in which my clinical experience exists.  Perhaps getting to 90% is enough - I mean, it's an "A".

One more observation ... those who used to train at my facility years ago ran the gamut.  We used a lot of high-intensity training at that time, and I noticed that those who came from endurance stuff fared much better and for much longer than those who only did the high-intensity stuff.  This is, however, not a random controlled trial - just me noticing a pattern, which I still "see" to this day.

Maybe there is something to building a huge aerobic base - for performance, of course.

References:

1) Hopeler, H., & Fluck, M. (2003). Plasticity of skeletal muscle mitochondria: Structure and function. Medical & Science in Sports and Exercise 35(1) 95-104.

2) Seiler, S., & Tonnesen, E. (2009). Intervals, thresholds, and long slow distance: The role of intensity and duration in endurance training. Sportscience 13(1) 32-53.

-Al
 
Al, so you're familiar with my position on this topic, eh?  I have a big smile on my face and thank you for pointing out that I have been known to repeat myself, repeat myself, repeat myself. :)

Your point about the population being trained is, of course, the most important item in the discussion.  Without a clear goal, there can be no clear plan.

It all boils down to percentage of effort.  For me, the stronger I am, the lower and lower percentage of my effort is required to accomplish the various tasks of my life.  If I can walk up the four flights of stairs in my mother-in-laws's retirement home two at a time and still be nose breathing at the top, I am as aerobically fit as I need to be.  And I'm not aerobically fit, I suspect, it's just that the stair climb requires such a small percentage of my strength that it doesn't even register on my aerobic radar, as it were.  But if you asked me to run for an hour, I'd have to train specifically for it - so please don't ask me to run for an hour, OK? :)

-S-
 
If I could dare to contribute a bit from my own experience to this awesome discussion, I had a good lesson in SAID the other day that I think relates to this.  I do a lot of walking in my day to day life.  I don't own a car and the weather has been too harsh for a bicycle so I spend anywhere from 1-3+ hours walking with a pack weighed to 10-40 lbs on any given day.  So I guess I have a pretty good low-speed base.  I also do S&S almost daily.  The experience in question was when I allowed myself to be (delightfully) delayed by a conversation on the way to a class a few klicks from where I was.  I ended up having to run in boots carrying a bag, something I try to avoid at all costs.  What was fascinating for me was the very new way I handled the running metabolically.  I could go at a pretty good clip, say 50-70% max effort, for a reasonable time but then started to feel lactic build up and could NOT handle that very well, very quickly lost power at that point, heavy limbs and the whole bit.  So I'd walk a bit, breathing away the fatigue and clearing out my acids until I felt "charged up" again and then after about 20-30 seconds was ready to make another bolt for it at relatively high intensity.  Then the lactate would start to creep in and I'd walk...and so on for the next 30-40 minutes until I arrived, just in time.  It was cool because I could directly feel the SAID principle at work from my S&S work, it followed a very similar pattern to my training in this regard.  That said, I would have liked the ability to carry on at a steady clip for a while...although the fact that I was wearing heavy boots and carrying a moderately loaded bag probably played a role in my response to that effort.  Anyhow, not sure if that adds anything to what you guys are discussing but it was an interesting experience for me with respect to understanding metabolism.
 
I should also add that I felt no significant fatigue after this bout of running (something I only do as needed,) but felt refreshed and able to enjoy a Feldenkrais and Systema class post-running even though I'd been on my feet almost all day.  I really enjoy the resilience that seems to come from the S&S protocol.
 
I have to chuckle at Steve's answer. Zero. In some ways he has a point. Any amount of cardio will suffice if you don't use it.

I race bikes, so obviously, cardio/endurance is pretty important. For a GPP type situation, I think you could set your individual need based on what you do for fun. If you're a hiker, you need to prepare yourself to do that. If you play tennis here or there, then use that as your yardstick.

Charles talked about a walk/run. I think it's beneficial to be able to sustain work output at higher than normal lactic acid concentrations. Training your body to clear metabolites and use lactate for the fuel it is can be a nice adaptation to keep in your back pocket. You don't have to race bikes to use it,  I've gotten a hell of a workout just scrambling through the airport.
 
Tim, just in the interest of completeness, I want to mention that I used to be an avid amateur endurance athlete.  I ran, biked, and swam every week and although I never did a triathlon, or entered a swim contest, I ran a lot of foot races from my mid-20's through my mid-40's.  Nothing spectacular but good numbers for an athsmatic who never did any competitive sports as a child - 20:10 5k foot race best, 1:36:40 best half-marathon.  I swam well enough to be mistaken more than once for an ex-collegiate swimmer and also taught swimming at the local Y, and was a good enough bikie to ride with the "A" level in our local bike club.

Part of the reason I say "Zero" is because I feel like I've had my fill of it. :)

-S-
 
Good stuff, Steve. I find to truly hate something, you need intimate experience with it.

I like to ride my bike, but I find myself swing big (well, to me) chunks of steel around in the backyard a lot lately.
 
GS flights  in competition last up to 10 minutes and are performed at height intensity.

- endurance, flexibility and strenght are in this order, the main fitness components of this sports.

An athlete is supposed to train 5 days week with a mix of  all the fitness components required for the flight and as Andrew outline, it is recommended to train the aerobic system at least 30 minutes / 5 times a week, at medium intensity, but the strengthening exercices GPP are performed at high intensity, circuit training ( crossfit style ) and all muscles groups are worked, plyometrics ( jumps box, jumps squats...), gymnastics exercises if possible, coordination, and a lot of flexibility.

@ Andrew : it seems for me that you are doing the write training with your aerobic workout, as long a your heart rate stay at a medium intensity for at least 30 minutes, it's all good.

This is Coach Sergey Rudney method, which work for me and many other athletes, but they are certainly others way to reach the same goal with success.

Кристин Хермановиу / IKFSA Kettlebells sport Level 1 and 2 coach course with Coach Rudnev

 

 

 
 
Steve,  I apologise and call you : Andrew, the reason is that the only GS athlete writing on this forum from Australia is Andrew Palmer and did this mistake many times. Sorry about that, I know that you are from USA.

Something else, I also " was " a certified " SFGI " instructors, ( my certification expired tomorrow ) and can't be re- certified as there is no course where I am living now but it seems for me, that a TGU must be performed without rush, so, for me, not the best exercises to work your aerobic system. Prefer swing or a squat if you want to stay with kettlebells, or snatches, I think that you are training for jerk or long cycle.

Could be better to work your aerobic without  weight and for a longer period ( 30 minutes or longer ) and your GPP ( strengthening with moderate weights at HIT, lot of reps, no recovery in between ) better also to change your exercises regularly to fight the body adaption to training.If you want more details : worldwildft@gmail.com

 
 
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