The Case for a High-Carb/Low-Fat Diet

Sean M

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I listen to/read disparate sources on training and nutrition.

Here’s one that’s the opposite of, say, Dr. Jason Fung:
The Advantages of a High-Carb/Low-Fat Diet | The Art of Manliness

Dr. Fung (and others like Gary Taubes and Mark Sisson) fight against the (in their argument) overly-simplistic “Calories In/Calories Out” model, and put much more weight (pun intended) on the insulin/hormonal model of obesity rather than CI/CO. But this article (echoing voices like Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum) makes the case for carbs, and lowering fat just because it’s the easiest place to cut calories.

Do we think more carbs are needed for kettlebell lifting (which falls on a spectrum somewhere between barbell strength training and Crossfit, with aerobic training on the far other end)?
 

Oscar

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Do we think more carbs are needed for kettlebell lifting (which falls on a spectrum somewhere between barbell strength training and Crossfit, with aerobic training on the far other end)?
I personally dont think so. And I eat a ton of carbs a day, so I´m by no means a low carb guy.

For the A+A and S&S type of training, I dont think you need carbs at all. I actually train fasted most days without any issues. Furthermore, the anaerobic system is being fueled by aerobic recovery, which can use fat oxidation as a fuel. So no need for carbs.

For other types of training, where the HR goes higher, I think carbs are needed. I wouldnt keep my HR at 160 for 1 hour, like many guys doing VWC do, in a fasted state.
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
I don't train as intense as I used to, but I supply about half or 55% calories from carbs, about 30% protein, 15% fat (roughly).
I have always been a lowish dietary fat moderate to high carb guy, and have never had any issues with body comp or any other issues-it aint broke I'm not fixing it.
Not eating it is the easiest way to get rid of it, and non keto folk need very little fat to supply low output aerobic steady state activity.

To the question, no. You don't need a lot of carbs to do A&A or S&S, but there are plenty of other ways to train KB where extra carbs will be appreciated without jumping all the way to CF protocol.
By keeping my dietary fat relatively low I get very rapid body comp changes with small tweaks. I realize this isn't the only macro strategy but it works great for me and allows for greatest variety of foods with least fuss. I have a simple rule - seek out extra protein and avoid extra fats.
 

maurice197

Double-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
I think of it in terms of speed of recovery .I believe that even people in ketosis still use muscle glycogen to fuel their workouts, but that glycogen gets built using triglycerides and takes longer to do. So if you are working out every other day, then you have plenty of time to restock glycogen into the muscle. If you are working out 2x per day, then you probably need carbs to restock in time for your next workout. I'll bet that there is a very grey area for people working out every day whether they can replenish in time or not. And maybe the longer you are in ketosis, the quicker it goes?
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
As I understand there is a period of about 30-50 minutes immediately following longer duration exertion, where ingested carbs do not trigger an insulin response - they get broken down and shunted right to muscle and liver without a reduction in fat utilization.

I don't know for sure if this true, but I do know if I pound a recovery shake right after training that is loaded with carbs and protein I feel greatly restored compared to waiting longer or not at all.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
The Advantages of a High-Carb/Low-Fat Diet | The Art of Manliness
Incomplete Information

This article is a mixture of some good information, mixed with incomplete information.

My reply will address the issue of Ketogenic Diet Athlete's Limit Strength and Power Training.

So, here we go...

..."Glucose...producing 36 ATP from a single glucose molecule."

This part of the article is correct. However, it neglects to tell you that..."One molecule of FFA (Free Fatty Acid) will yield 129 to 300 ATP depending on length." Source: http://ezinearticles.com/?Fat-Burning-How-it-Works&id=172463

"Weight Lifting"

In this part of the article they conjure up a vague story that leads to an incorrect conclusion in their...

"Bottom line: To get stronger, and be able to push yourself in the gym, a diet high in carbs is crucial."

A high carbohydrate diet is not "Crucial" for "Getting Stronger". Let's break it down.

The Phosphagen Energy System

ATP is the energy source. In all out efforts, ATP is pretty much depleted in around 15 seconds but you may last up to 30 seconds; although Limit Strength and Power drop like a rock after 15 seconds or less.

Limit Strength Training falls into the Phosphagen Energy System (Intensite Activity Under 30 seconds); Near Max Loads, Low Repetitions (1 - 5), Long Rest Periods between Sets.

A heavy set of an exercise performed for 1 - 5 repetitions is completed around 15 second.

The Phosphagen Energy System is reliant on ATP, not Glucose nor Ketones.

Due to the long rest periods of 3 plus minutes between Limit Strength Sets, ATP Restoration can and is accomplished via Glucose or Ketones. The article essentially state that, was well.

Where it jumps the track is in...

Their Fabricated Story

Their story revolves around an individual who is "Glucose Dependent", following a high carbohydrate diet. They, then suddenly restrict carbohydrates over a period of days; which produces a decrease in Limit Strength Performance. Base on that scenario, their projected outcome is correct.

However, if that same individual were put on a Ketogenic Diet and allowed to become Keto Adapted, their article's scenario falls apart.

Summary

A diet high in carbs is NOT "crucial" for increasing Limit Strength.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Jeff Roark

Triple-Digit Post Count
I prefer a higher carb diet. I eat lots of sugar, yes plain white table sugar. I simply feel much better and train better with this approach. I don't have a diet per say, I simply eat 3 meals per day and its carb dominant.

carbs may not be crucial but it sure doesn't hurt for building strength. I've done the Anabolic diet, the paleo stuff, and other low carb diets and they've all been a bust for me. Felt great for a short period of time, and then felt like trash. Never again.

as far as protein, I never worry about it or count it. I just eat. If I were to guess, I probably get between 75-125 grams per day.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I prefer a higher carb diet. I eat lots of sugar, yes plain white table sugar. I simply feel much better and train better with this approach.
High Carbohydrate Diet

Some individual do well on a High Carbohydrate Diet. Some sugar isn't a problem for most. However, if you are an individual who consume a lot of sugar, you might want to reconsider it for a multitude of reasons.

Diabetes An America

The projection is that by 2050, one-third of Americans will have Diabetes. The growth of Diabetes is primarily driven by the over consumption of simple sugar, as well as over consumption of calories and lack of exercise.

...carbs may not be crucial but it sure doesn't hurt for building strength.
The same applies to a well written and executed Low Carbohydrate Diet in a Strength Training Protocol Program that caters to the Phosphagen Energy System.

I've done the Anabolic diet, the paleo stuff, and other low carb diets and they've all been a bust for me.
The Anabolic Diet

Research (Dr Jake Wilson/University of Tampa Human Performance Lab) found that the Anabolic Diet increase fat gain.

Wilson's research also found that 5 Days of High Fat/Moderate Protein/Low Carbohydrates followed by High Carbohdrates/High Protein/Low Fat only allowed you to be in Ketosis (Fat Burning) for 1.5 days out of 7 days.

Low Carbohydrate Diets

The issue with Low Carbohydrate Diets is that if fat intake isn't high enough, you are "Glucose Dependent"; your body utilizes glucose rather than burning body fat/ketones.

Your body then converts protein (gluconeogenesis) into Glucose.

Protein is a necessary tool for building and maintaining muscle mass.

Thus, individual on a Low Carbohydrate Diet that is so high in Carbs maintains your "Glucose Dependence".

That means you need quite a bit more protein so that it can do two jobs.

1) Covert Protein into Glucose for energy.

2) Maintain and/or build muscle mass.

...low carb diets and they've all been a bust for me. Felt great for a short period of time, and then felt like trash.
Reasons They Didn't Work

One of the primarily reasons Low Carbohydrates Diet don't work is that they incorrectly implemented.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Bret S.

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
High Carbohydrate Diet

Some individual do well on a High Carbohydrate Diet. Some sugar isn't a problem for most. However, if you are an individual who consume a lot of sugar, you might want to reconsider it for a multitude of reasons.

Diabetes An America

The projection is that by 2050, one-third of Americans will have Diabetes. The growth of Diabetes is primarily driven by the over consumption of simple sugar, as well as over consumption of calories and lack of exercise.



The same applies to a well written and executed Low Carbohydrate Diet in a Strength Training Protocol Program that caters to the Phosphagen Energy System.



The Anabolic Diet

Research (Dr Jake Wilson/University of Tampa Human Performance Lab) found that the Anabolic Diet increase fat gain.

Wilson's research also found that 5 Days of High Fat/Moderate Protein/Low Carbohydrates followed by High Carbohdrates/High Protein/Low Fat only allowed you to be in Ketosis (Fat Burning) for 1.5 days out of 7 days.

Low Carbohydrate Diets

The issue with Low Carbohydrate Diets is that if fat intake isn't high enough, you are "Glucose Dependent"; your body utilizes glucose rather than burning body fat/ketones.

Your body then converts protein (gluconeogenesis) into Glucose.

Protein is a necessary tool for building and maintaining muscle mass.

Thus, individual on a Low Carbohydrate Diet that is so high in Carbs maintains your "Glucose Dependence".

That means you need quite a bit more protein so that it can do two jobs.

1) Covert Protein into Glucose for energy.

2) Maintain and/or build muscle mass.



Reasons They Didn't Work

One of the primarily reasons Low Carbohydrates Diet don't work is that they incorrectly implemented.

Kenny Croxdale
I used to be more like @Jeff Roark in my diet, but have avoided sugar and processed flour type foods for the most part since age 19. During my BB days I would eat alot or crap though. Up until the last 10 years or so I ate tons of pasta and other higher carb meals and did fine. Then life circumstances and stress got in the way and I had an epic battle with candida, it had crossed the blood/brain barrier before I figured it out. It took 3 years of dedication to defeat it, most people can't do it on their own. That changed my diet forever. I still eat some carbs but mostly on heavy KB days.
Now my body is flex fuel, I can do carbs or not do carbs and feel pretty much the same while training. @Oscar mentioned doing VWC in a fasted state, this I do often but sometimes not, I honestly can't feel the difference.
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
The only refined sugars I get are in my chocolate milk and whatever they put in the commercial weight gainer when I can't get the plain whey powder.

I avoid a lot of pasta and breads but manage this more through portion control than avoidance.If its pasta and meatballs the pasta is more a garnish for the meatballs than the entree.

Most of my carbs come from fruit, root veg, and rice.

That said, I used to eat a lot more carb-heavy sources of protein when my daughter was vegetarian. Its tough to be low carb on a veg diet, though I understand it is possible.
 

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I prefer a higher carb diet. I eat lots of sugar, yes plain white table sugar.
Blimey, you ok?
You'll start growing horns out of your head soon and people will think you're weird. Please don't attend a Paleo fx conference you will be burned at the stake.

As I understand there is a period of about 30-50 minutes immediately following longer duration exertion, where ingested carbs do not trigger an insulin response
Yes, our friendly non insulin dependent glucose transporters.

The thing with high carb/low fat is that it has been 'the message' since the late 70s/early 80s for health and weight loss and as we know everyone is now huge and unwell. When really 'the message' has been taken out of context, might as well be 'free bar'. No one orders an orange juice, it's usually a double tequila on the minute until the designated coma.
The simplistic reason behind expanding waistlines is the explosion of cheap crap food that people eat too much of. Some high carb/low fat but mostly high carb/high fat to excess despite western government's health advice of just stop effing eating so much. Oh and all the advertsing, marketing of said crap labelled as 'healthy', 'organic' and the like. The whole hodgepodge of food politics and wellness hoohah.

If you are talking food, as in proper food, my own take from the various food religions is that it really doesn't matter.....if, if, you are lean and healthy. Certainly for performance, more carbs, absolutely if speed, power is a thing, not so much perhaps if slugging out for endurance based efficiency, eeking out more miles to the gallon, or more atp per gram of fuel, to go on for longer without the need to refuel.

I'm more higher carb - no clue about calories - as I eat a boatload of fruit and veg. I plunge my face into sugary bowls of custard from time to time and smother myself in ice cream sometimes. My custard usually has a banana and coconut in it to keep the gods of my primal ancestry happy and I invoke the wrath of Grok with some lovely ice cream and chocolate on special occasions. Usually after a sprint session.

Potatoes. Very underrated.

If you listen to the SF podcast, the most recent one with Derek Toshner you may find interesting. Towards the end a brief discussion on nutrition and Derek favours a higher carb content., by his reckoning when training 50% of calories in and 40% when not training so hard. As always, to be clear, higher quality carb content. There is always the risk that when carbs are discussed cake and doughnuts are imagined. High quality carbs are indeed just that, high quality nutrition.
 

Bret S.

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
The only refined sugars I get are in my chocolate milk and whatever they put in the commercial weight gainer when I can't get the plain whey powder.

I avoid a lot of pasta and breads but manage this more through portion control than avoidance.If its pasta and meatballs the pasta is more a garnish for the meatballs than the entree.

Most of my carbs come from fruit, root veg, and rice.

That said, I used to eat a lot more carb-heavy sources of protein when my daughter was vegetarian. Its tough to be low carb on a veg diet, though I understand it is possible.
Chocolate milk, Crispy Creme donuts, spaghetti and meatballs, garlic bread, meatloaf. huge baked russets with T-bone, Sushi ...
Damn I'm hungry :cool:
 

Jeff Roark

Triple-Digit Post Count
I have no interest
High Carbohydrate Diet

Some individual do well on a High Carbohydrate Diet. Some sugar isn't a problem for most. However, if you are an individual who consume a lot of sugar, you might want to reconsider it for a multitude of reasons.

Diabetes An America

The projection is that by 2050, one-third of Americans will have Diabetes. The growth of Diabetes is primarily driven by the over consumption of simple sugar, as well as over consumption of calories and lack of exercise.



The same applies to a well written and executed Low Carbohydrate Diet in a Strength Training Protocol Program that caters to the Phosphagen Energy System.



The Anabolic Diet

Research (Dr Jake Wilson/University of Tampa Human Performance Lab) found that the Anabolic Diet increase fat gain.

Wilson's research also found that 5 Days of High Fat/Moderate Protein/Low Carbohydrates followed by High Carbohdrates/High Protein/Low Fat only allowed you to be in Ketosis (Fat Burning) for 1.5 days out of 7 days.

Low Carbohydrate Diets

The issue with Low Carbohydrate Diets is that if fat intake isn't high enough, you are "Glucose Dependent"; your body utilizes glucose rather than burning body fat/ketones.

Your body then converts protein (gluconeogenesis) into Glucose.

Protein is a necessary tool for building and maintaining muscle mass.

Thus, individual on a Low Carbohydrate Diet that is so high in Carbs maintains your "Glucose Dependence".

That means you need quite a bit more protein so that it can do two jobs.

1) Covert Protein into Glucose for energy.

2) Maintain and/or build muscle mass.



Reasons They Didn't Work

One of the primarily reasons Low Carbohydrates Diet don't work is that they incorrectly implemented.

Kenny Croxdale
I have no interest in low carb "diets" or so called implementing them correctly. I implemented them correctly enough to know they completely sucked for me. On Paleo my digestion and toilet trips were miserable. It was always a complete sludge from all the gobs of meat and fats with green veggies. Felt terrible and always cold. Started eating white rice, bread, and potatoes and magically I felt better in all ways. Found I do much better with in the ground types of veggies. Too many "healthy" green do not agree with me in anyway shape or form.

My usual day of eating is this:

Breakfast- alternates
3 eggs scrambled w/cheese
cream of rice w/ raisins and a teaspoon of sugar
coffee with milk sweetened with a tbsp of Sorghum syrup and a tsp of sugar
or
coffee w/ 1 scoop of whey and milk sweetened with a tbsp of Sorghum syrup and a tsp of sugar
1 bowl of rice chex w/ milk and a tsp of sugar


Lunch
Cottage Cheese w/ fruit
Rice or rice cakes

Dinner
Whatever the wife fixes and I add fruits too it.

before bed
tea w/honey
 

Jeff Roark

Triple-Digit Post Count
Blimey, you ok?
You'll start growing horns out of your head soon and people will think you're weird. Please don't attend a Paleo fx conference you will be burned at the stake.



Yes, our friendly non insulin dependent glucose transporters.

The thing with high carb/low fat is that it has been 'the message' since the late 70s/early 80s for health and weight loss and as we know everyone is now huge and unwell. When really 'the message' has been taken out of context, might as well be 'free bar'. No one orders an orange juice, it's usually a double tequila on the minute until the designated coma.
The simplistic reason behind expanding waistlines is the explosion of cheap crap food that people eat too much of. Some high carb/low fat but mostly high carb/high fat to excess despite western government's health advice of just stop effing eating so much. Oh and all the advertsing, marketing of said crap labelled as 'healthy', 'organic' and the like. The whole hodgepodge of food politics and wellness hoohah.

If you are talking food, as in proper food, my own take from the various food religions is that it really doesn't matter.....if, if, you are lean and healthy. Certainly for performance, more carbs, absolutely if speed, power is a thing, not so much perhaps if slugging out for endurance based efficiency, eeking out more miles to the gallon, or more atp per gram of fuel, to go on for longer without the need to refuel.

I'm more higher carb - no clue about calories - as I eat a boatload of fruit and veg. I plunge my face into sugary bowls of custard from time to time and smother myself in ice cream sometimes. My custard usually has a banana and coconut in it to keep the gods of my primal ancestry happy and I invoke the wrath of Grok with some lovely ice cream and chocolate on special occasions. Usually after a sprint session.

Potatoes. Very underrated.

If you listen to the SF podcast, the most recent one with Derek Toshner you may find interesting. Towards the end a brief discussion on nutrition and Derek favours a higher carb content., by his reckoning when training 50% of calories in and 40% when not training so hard. As always, to be clear, higher quality carb content. There is always the risk that when carbs are discussed cake and doughnuts are imagined. High quality carbs are indeed just that, high quality nutrition.
My carbs are mainly fruit, white rice, white and sweet potatoes, couscous, and lentils. I do have a couple of tablespoons of white sugar per day and I am lean enough and my blood work is fine.

There was one low carb super hero I read about lately and his blood work is a mess. Eating loads of butter and his fasting glucose continues to climb. He looks like a tub of lard on top of it, but of course calories don't matter...
 

Sean M

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Also thought this was interesting:
Third, determine your carbohydrate amount. This will depend on your fitness goals. If you’re trying to lose weight, aim to get 1g of carbohydrate per pound of bodyweight. If you’re trying to gain weight and get stronger, aim to get 2g of carbohydrates per pound of bodyweight. Make sure that those carbs you’re getting consist of at least 40g to 50g of fiber a day
Mark Sisson recommended (in Primal Blueprint) 150g of carbs or less, which (net of fiber) is the lower range recommended in this article. Are there agreed-upon definitions of high or low carb or fat?
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
coffee w/ 1 scoop of whey and milk sweetened with a tbsp of Sorghum syrup and a tsp of sugar
1 bowl of rice chex w/ milk and a tsp of sugar
My quick breakfast is Cheerios with a scoop of unflavored whey powder dumped over the top, floating on soymilk or skim milk (I have to sub out soymilk occasionally, my tolerance for dairy not as consistent as it used to be).
 

Jeff Roark

Triple-Digit Post Count
My quick breakfast is Cheerios with a scoop of unflavored whey powder dumped over the top, floating on soymilk or skim milk (I have to sub out soymilk occasionally, my tolerance for dairy not as consistent as it used to be).
I like cherrios also, and rice crispies. Soy makes me sick. I remember back in the days saving up all my money to buy a can of Joe Weiders Dynamic Muscle Builder. I remember being so excited to try it, and when I finally got to try it every shake I made I threw it up within minutes.
 

Oscar

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I also eat a ton of carbs, mostly fruit and veggies. I'm not incredibly lean or strong, but I'm the strongest and most lean that I've ever been.

since I have eaten more than 2000 calories a day of fruit, I've been warned many times about becoming diabetic. So far so good. I think the body learns to deal with carbs like it can adapt to any other thing, as long as the carbs are good.
 
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