Discussion in 'Diet and Nutrition' started by Sean M, Aug 24, 2018.
Thank you @North Coast Miller . Much appreciated.
And "Low fat" doesn't mean "No fat", like Mr North Coast Miller says, a little butter is fine if you want it, a handfull of nuts in your oats, eggs have healthy fats in them...
Diet's that eliminate whole food groups are usually stupid and or dangerous. The "only butter diet" and the "water melon cleanse" comes to mind...
@Abdul Rasheed I believe the guidelines are:
Sufficient protein: 0.8-1.0g/pound bodyweight (higher end of that range if you are trying to gain weight/muscle).
Low fat: 100g or less. Trade 10g fat for 10g carbs if waist circumference grows (if trying to gain wait) or doesn’t shrink (if trying to lose weight). This cuts calories (from fat) but more carbs keeps you feeling full.
Remaining calories from complex carbs, mainly rice and potatoes. If trying to lose but it’s not going down, trim off 20g carb and 10g fat for two weeks and see if that works. Don’t add fat if trying to gain, eat more protein and/or carbs instead.
Current B/W is ~202 lbs. My goal is Weight/Fat loss. This is my starting point, based on the article in your original post, for a daily consumption of ~2100 calories. I am going to try this for a few weeks and track using app similar to MyFitnessPal.
Protein: ~202g (~800 calories)
Carbs: ~202g (40-50g of which should be fibers) (~800 calories)
Fat: ~55 g (~500 calories)
If you complete eliminate fat from anyone diet, there are going to eventually be some health consequences.
If you eliminated fat from an individual on a Ketogenic Diet and only fed them carbohydrates, their system would adapt, unless they have some underlying health issue.
Fat Dependent or Fat Adapted...
Carbohydrate Adapted or perhaps a better term "Carbohydrate Dependent" individuals systems are set up to run off glucose rather than body fat.
"Carbohydrate Dependent" means they they are dependent of glucose. These individual's system are inefficient at utilizing body fat. That due to the fact that they are Metabolically Inflexible.
The same applies, in reverse, with "Fat Dependent"/Fat Adapted. Their systems are set up to utilized ketones/body fat over glucose.
The most effective method of developing Metabolic Flexibility (research Dr Mike T. Nelson) is Intermittent Fasting. The body learn to utilize the right energy source, dependent on the activity, sport or training protocol being used.
Many research papers state that glucose restores ATP faster than fats.
The follow up question to that should be...
How much slower is ATP restoration from lipids vs glucose?
There need to be a definitive number attached to this reply; slower and faster are vague term that mean nothing.
"Ketones give more energy than glucose. Whereas carb metabolism yields 36 ATP molecules from a glucose molecule, a fat metabolism yields 48 ATP molecules from a fatty acid molecule inside the mitochondria." Ketosis and Mitochondria - The Best Thing About the Ketogenic Diet (NOT Fat Burning) - Siim Land
Other research data that I have indicates ketones may yield up to 4 time more ATP than glucose.
All of the above takes us back to...
The Energy System
1) Phosphagan Energy System: It is not dependent on ketones nor glucose. Thus, a Ketogenic Athlete will perform well as well as Traditional Western High Carbohydrate Athlete.
2) Glyclytic Energy System: Training and sports that fall into this category need to consume a higher carbohydrate diet.
3) Oxidative Energy System: Keto Adapted/Fat Dependent Athletes do well in activities and sports that fall into this category.
Ketogenic Adapted Strength Training Prescription
1) Sets need to no longer than 30 seconds, with around 10 to 15 seconds being the sweet spot.
2) Hypertrophy Strength Training is best accomplished with Cluster Set, via Dr Jonathan Oliver's research.
That is not supported by any science, at least regarding physically active folks. People with healthy mitochodrial function and some aerobic conditioning have no problem processing fats for ATP.
Keto adapted folk have an advantage over non keto when it comes to larger % of fat in the diet, but many if not all have impaired glucose response when in this state, overall less flexible - my earlier statement stands.
These individual training and sports are geared toward lower level intensity. Lower level intensity activities and sports utilize a greater percentage of body fat for fuel.
With that said, Drs Volek and Phinney's research with Endurance Athletes demonstrated that many individuals on a Ketogenic Diet performed better.
Their system were able to utilize body fat more so than those on a high carbohydrate diet. Dr Peter Attia's (Triathlete) research found that to be true, as well as many others.
Due the fact that Keto Adapted Endurance Athletes utilizing more body fat "bonked" less or later in a race. That because the underlying cause of "Bonking" is running out glucose.
Thus, Keto Adapted Endurance Athletes burned more ketones while preserving more glucose.
The Ugly Fact Regarding This
"The great tragedy of science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact."
You need to expand you research on this. The premise is build on a house of cards.
ATP Restoration Recovery
Glucose vs Lipid Restoration Time?
I take it that you don't know, which is fine. I have spoken with a few Exercise Physiologist that use vague terms and no definitive answer.
I haven't followed this thread in detail, but I'll nonetheless stick my neck out and contribute a few thoughts.
1. I happened across a video from a few years ago with our own @Brett Jones talking about the importance of recovery and relaxation when pursuing fat loss. (Brett, please correct me if I'm wrong - I got interrupted before I watched the entire thing.) Based on my own experience, I agree 110%. A stressed-filled (stress-out - choose your term here) life is not conducive to good physical or mental health. And neither is a life without challenges - there is a balance to be sought out here.
2. I have yet to find any approach to eating that works as well for everything I do - your mileage may vary - as keto with an occasional cheat day. And I love it - heavy cream in generous quantity in my coffee. Did you know that you can now, and have been able to for the last few months, ask for heavy cream in your drinks at Starbucks? All I can say is, "It's about time!"
In addition to heavy cream, you've got avocados. And olive oil. And cheese. Take a leftover burger out of the 'frig, put it in a bowl, pour olive oil over it, smother it in the grated cheese of your choice - I like sharp cheddar and mozzarella - and warm it up. Have an avocado or a green salad or both along with it.
3. I am almost completely ignorant on this aspect of diet, but acidic things like vinegar and lemon juice seem to be good for you. When you have a glass of iced tea, squeeze half a small lemon into it and then throw it into your glass for good measure. Use vinegar on things - I'm partial to rice wine vinegar and will use it not only in salad dressing but add it to stir-fry dishes and wherever else I can. (If balsamic vinegar falls into this same class of foods, that's news to me - I don't care for it.)
4. A high-carb, low-fat diet makes me bored and profoundly unsatisfied.
I live near the Australian Institute of Sport (AIS) and have engaged with many of their athletes over the years. I've never met one who was on a low carb high fat diet, let alone been ketogenic, except strictly for reasons of weight loss.
The AIS own studies have concluded low carb high fat is not optimal for elite athletes involved in higher intensity exercise although they do acknowledge that athletes in sports requiring moderate to low exercise intensities (eg ultra marathons) could well do okay. This is a link to the most recent AIS study:
Louise M Burke, Megan L Ross, Laura A Garvican‐Lewis, Marijke Welvaert, Ida A Heikura, Sara G Forbes, Joanne G Mirtschin, Louise E Cato, Nicki Strobel, Avish P Sharma, John A Hawley Low Carbohydrate, High Fat diet impairs exercise economy and negates the performance benefit from intensified training in elite race walkers. Journal of Physiology
Accepted manuscript online: 23 December 2016
Depends on your sport. For powerlifting, it works well.
"The remarkable feature of physical laws is that they apply everywhere, whether or not you choose to believe in them. After the laws of physics, everything else is opinion."
— Neil deGrasse Tyson
It's all just carbon.
If you need fast energy, if you need power then it is highly likely that that speed and power is being delivered by glucose. Whether you eat some or not.
Nothing is pure alactic, there is a glycolytic input. A single lift, maybe so but so what?
If you want slow enduring energy then it is highly likely that is supplied by fatty acids. Whether you eat some or not.
I don't know what the big deal is.
Even in a rested state, nothing is pure aerobic... .the pcr system is active. You are functioning too via anaerobic glycolysis ....your red blood cells. At rest. At max intensity, all energy systems are at work, in varying amounts.
The atp molecule is a nucleic acid attached to a sugar base with a phosphate group. It is recycled in 2 stages, a fast stage and a slower stage.
If there is adp available, creatine can reattach, it's ability to do so is dependent on the pH of the cell. If it is too acidic, then normal ph needs to be restored. In this situation atp is being met by glycolysis. If intensity drops, then ph is restored and aerobic respiration can continue (it never stops).
Fatty acids produce greater atp energy yields per mol but it is slow. Glucose is faster.
If there was a way around this then our best human athletes with optimum physiology could run the same pace in a 100m for 26 miles. They don't. Because no one can. Not carbon based humans anyway.
So you can function without dietary glucose.....but it is totally and utterly wrong to believe your body does not use it or need it. It is an essential nutrient. It's a choice to have it in your diet. Fair enough.
For performance though at high intensity? It's a choice.....science or belief.
Ok.....look a macro 40 carb, 40 protein, 20 fat v 20 carb, 40 protein, 40 fat.....who cares? It comes to 100, 50, 40, 50 doesn't. We can all agree that is not 100.
If you do high intensity anything you'll just be better off ....if lean and healthy ...on higher carb. Not through choice but physiology.
Again, to restate, what's the big deal?
It always comes down to physics in the end...
Yes, physics rule as all. But the human body is a very complex organic machine that can brake down or function at optimum depending on the carbon based fuel you put in it.
Link to article in Science:
Dietary fat: From foe to friend?
If you have the time this is an very interesting article where scientist from both sides of the argument, carbs vs. fat, actually comes to some sort of conclusion.
It's not "carbs vs. fat", what matters, according to the article in the most respected scientific publication in the world, is that it's the quality of the food that matters.
1. With a focus on nutrient quality, good health and low chronic disease risk can be achieved for many people on diets with a broad range of carbohydrate-to-fat ratios.
2. Replacement of saturated fat with naturally occurring unsaturated fats provides health benefits for the general population. Industrially produced trans fats are harmful and should be eliminated. The metabolism of saturated fat may differ on carbohydrate-restricted diets, an issue that requires study.
3. Replacement of highly processed carbohydrates (including refined grains, potato products, and free sugars) with unprocessed carbohydrates (nonstarchy vegetables, whole fruits, legumes, and whole or minimally processed grains) provides health benefits.
Saturated fat has been unjustly vilified. Research is slowly reveling that.
Unfortunately, the majority of individual have been brain washed with misinformation and continue to parrot that information.
The irony is these experts knowledge is usually based on one sentence. Those with an advaced level of expertise in this area is comes from two sentences.
As I stated in a previous post, I don't have enough toes and fingers to count all the experts on this topic or other.
Replacement of Saturated Fat with Unsaturated Fats
This is an example of the dilemma of providing one sentence. The majority of individual's (most of the individual on this site are the exception) knowledge and expertise is based on sentences like that.
As you and many of the individual on this site know, replacing with Omega 9's (Oliver Oil, Avocado Oil, etc) tends to improve Blood Lipid Cholesterol Numbers.
Omega 6 Fats produce inflammation, etc. Omega 6 Fats are in everything. Thus, the general population that replaces Saturated Fat with Polyunsaturated Fat is most likely worse off; "The devil is in the details".
One of the issue that drives all the misinformation about Saturated Fats is the...
Blood Lipid Profile
It is composed of individual reading of...
1) Total Cholesterol: This number alone means nothing. The main value it has is in determining Remnant Cholesterol. This is is a vital number for determining your Cardiovascular Risk.
2) LDL: This is another number that by itself means nothing. Ironically, many physicians and most of the general population view it as the "Bad Cholesterol".
My general physician, empathatically told me that it the only number he look at is LDL. End of discussion.
The determinate factor in determining if LDL is good or bad is the percentage of LDL Paricles.
a) Particle A LDL Is Good: If you have a larger percentage of good Particle A LDL, your LDL is fine.
b) Particle B LDL Is Bad: If you have a larger percentage of bad Particle B LDL, you have a health issue.
A Particle Test can determine your percentage of good or bad LDL. However, no physical tells you about it nor do the prescribe the lab work for it.
However, there is practical method of determining if you have good or bad. More on that in a minute.
3) HDL: This is an important number. Higher is better, lower isn't so good.
HDL is increased with exercise. Ironically, consuming Saturated Fat will also increase your HDL. No physician ever tells you that.
4) Triglycerides: This is a vital number. Lower is better.
5) Triglycerides:HDL Ratio: The ratio is vital in determining cardiovascular health.
a) Low Triglycerides and High HDL is good.
b) High Triglycerides and Low HDL is bad.
c) Your ratio indicates if you have more good Particle A or more bad Particle B.
d) A lower number means you have more good Particle A and a high number means you have more bad Particle B.
Math: Divide you HDL into your Triglycerides.
a) 2 or less is really good.
b) 2 - 3 is in the grey area. The higher the number the darker the grey.
c) 4 plus, means a dramatic increase in Cardiovascular Risk.
I like to manipulate my Saturated Fat and Monounsaturated Fat percentages. I keep my Polyunsaturated Fat low. I keep a comparison chart of my reading.
Below are two significantly different readings. The irony if you know how to read each, you'll see the my Cardiovascular Risks is low, essentially they are the same with both readings.
3/25/2016 (High Monounstrated Fat/Moderately Low Saturated Fat Intake)
a) Total Cholesterol: 170
b) LDL: 115
c) HDL: 45
d) Triglycerides: 54
1/10/19 (High Saturated Fat/Moderate Monounsaturated Fat Intake)
a) Total Cholesterol: 223
b) LDL: 163
c) HDL: 45
d) Triglycerides: 60
The most important factors are...
1) Remnant Cholesterol Number
2) Triglyceride:HDL Ratio.
3) Particle LDL Percentage. Your Triglyceride:HDL Ratio will provide you with that information.
Not wanting to argue any point here but there was a thread a while back saying how sugar is addictive lighting up dopamine receptors. It was pointed out I think - may not have posted it because I went off on a rant - that indeed fat does this too because food does generally.....(without a reward system we would lack motivation and not eat)
In that article above....
'Of particular interest, the high-fat diets increased expression of three serotonin receptors and both dopamine and opioid signaling pathways, components of the reward system in the hypothalamus."
....just to take some flak away from the poor little glucose molecule. Again.
What we do, it seems anyway, agree on is a high fat/high carb diet in excess is the problem. So we've solved it....
This also makes no sense. I might claim glucose supplies as much ATP per unit time as CrP, but science says it is a chemical reaction with fewer steps and can be demonstrated - just as glycolysis can be demonstrated to generate ATP faster than lipid oxidation (ketones or palmitate) due to the smaller number of reactions. The exact numbers are dependent on a bunch of factors, as the glycolytic reaction speeds up at lower Ph, higher temps, lower oxygen environment. The answer "it depends" is the correct one.
Of further interest to high output athletes, the production of lactate consumes inorganic phosphate, one of the major causes of muscle fatigue, if not the most dominant cause. Any time the CrP pathway is contributing a lot to turnover of ATP, inorganic phosphate will begin to accumulate, oxidation of fats and ketones does nothing for this.
There may be some outliers, but at the most intense levels of performance, carb loaded folk dominate.
"It doesn't make sense..."
It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or not.
What matters are the fact.
"I might claim..."
Your claiming something fall into the area of "Altered Facts"
"You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts."
So, back to the "Facts"...
"Ketones give more energy than glucose. Whereas carb metabolism yields 36 ATPmolecules from a glucose molecule, a fat metabolism yields 48 ATP molecules from a fatty acid molecule inside the mitochondria." Ketosis and Mitochondria - The Best Thing About the Ketogenic Diet (NOT Fat Burning) - Siim Land
Other research data that I have indicates ketones may yield up to 4 time more ATP than glucose.
That statement means the the amount of time for ATP Restoration may not be that much faster for individual on a Traditional High Carbohydrate Diet vs a Ketogenic Diet.
Also, is appears that the traditional rest periods of three minutes plus for Strength, Power and Speed Training are enough for individual on any kind of diet; Phosphagen Energy System.
Of the three Energy Systems, only the Glycolytic Energy System is the one where a Higher Carbohydrate Diet is necessary.
With that said, Strength Hypertrophy Training (Glycolytic Energy System) can be circumvented with Dr Jonathan Oliver's Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training Protocol.
More Uncovering of the Inuit Myth: Stefansson and Anderson Belleview Experiement; Compromised Glucose Tolerance
If you discovered another fuel that provided 4x the amount of ATP but was even slower than lipid oxidation, it would be 100% irrelevant to discussions of athletics - speed of reaction rate determines available energy for muscle contraction. Like trying to keep yourself warm rubbing your hands over a rusting piece of iron, plenty of other materials oxidize faster. You're arguing against science...
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