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Barbell The Front Squat and Maintaining Up-Right Position

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nyet07

Level 2 Valued Member
Hello Everybody,

I am one of those people recently began experimenting with barbell front squat since I began considering it to be great upper back builder and foundational strength exercise. However, I have also come to realize that it is very technical lift as opposed to the deadlift, which almost suits to every body structure and can be learned easily as it is mentioned in PTTP. As far as I have experimented with front squat, I can say there are two major points that should be taken into consideration: up-right torso and not-tucked-in pelvis(butt wink).

It took a great effort for me to fix my butt wink problem when squatting. I had to do a lot of goblet squats including "prying" (I have no idea what the hell it means btw), and I've also done lots of stretch for my adductor magnus. I have too much muscle in that area by nature and they really reduce flexibility.

I've also done great amount of research regarding what affects ability to maintain upright torso during squats. I've come to realize that varying factors contribute to one's ability to stay upright. They include femur bone length, thoracic spine flexibility, ankle flexibility and torso length. No matter how hard I try to stay upright, including having open chest and flat upper back, my torso is never close to perpendicular to floor. My knees pass my toes, my back is flat and even flexed, but I am not upright. It is 30 degrees at most. But most of the time, if I don't flex my upper back, my torso is around 45 degrees to the floor with a straight back.

Because I cannot keep my torso upright, I decided kettlebell front squats would be a better choice than barbell front squat. What do you generally think about upright torso requirement for barbell front squats?
 
As you noted there are many factors that go into torso angle during any squat. Maybe a video would be helpful in order to offer better suggestions? Generally the torso should be nearly vertical, but I'd say it's pretty rare to actually have a flag-pole style vertical torso in the bottom position, even amongst world class weightlifters.
 
@Tony Gracia

When I will have the time, I will post an example video. BTW, what do you think about barbell versus kettlebell front squats when torso position is taken into consideration? I think kettlebell front squat is favorable because it has a lot less chance of crushing wrists when done incorrectly.
 
In my experience the KB double front is tougher than the barbell FS.

Both require a very upright posture compared to back squats, with KB having the added compression on the ribcage and the KBs wanting to pull away from the body as you go up.

It might be good to try them with KB anyway as it will definitely instill solid posture, or it just isn't going to happen. Leaning forward at all with heavy double KBs and they will want to pry away from your rack even more so than an Olympic bar.

You might even try some Zercher squats with barbell or sandbags.

I have seen people rock the KBs onto their shoulder/biceps and squat like that - is more of a back squat in that you can lean forward a bit.

At the bottom if you go super deep a small wink is almost inevitable, but is also unlikely to be an issue as long as its the absolute first thing to straighten out on the way up.
 
nyet07 said:
@Tony Gracia

When I will have the time, I will post an example video. BTW, what do you think about barbell versus kettlebell front squats when torso position is taken into consideration? I think kettlebell front squat is favorable because it has a lot less chance of crushing wrists when done incorrectly.
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I think the torso position should be pretty similar between the two. It's easier to unintentionally "cheat" on the KBFS by allowing the elbows to move forward away from the body, thus moving the COG of the KB's farther away from the torso as well. This results in a false sense of vertical of the torso.

As for wrist position, really the wrists shouldn't be negatively impacted by either exercise. When the wrists get sore in a BBFS it's almost always a technique issue or a mobility issue in a body part other than the wrist. Even if someone has a hard time fixing this (maybe they don't have access to a coach) then a bodybuilding style rack should solve the problem.
 
nyet07 said:
Hello Everybody,

I am one of those people recently began experimenting with barbell front squat since I began considering it to be great upper back builder and foundational strength exercise....
Click to expand...

Front Squats require good mobility not only in your ankles and hips, but also in thoracic/shoulder area too. So if you are missing any of these three you will have some trouble squatting this way. If your shoulder/thoracic mobility is not good, your rack position will be compromised, which makes it hard to squat below parallel + keeping the barbell on your shoulders/clavicles.
Kettlebell FS are less demanding in that area, but you still have to get the rack position dialed in. Lots of people think that it is hard to work the legs with kettlebell FS because their rack is not good.
 
@nyet07 Typically your the weight will stay over your feet in any squat - if your leaning forward it means your hips are having to travel backwards.

This happens often if ankles are tight and knees dont move forward. If yours are moving forward past your toes it could be your femur length is long - normally resolved by taking a wider stance in my experience
 
nyet07 said:
Hello Everybody,

I am one of those people recently began experimenting with barbell front squat since I began considering it to be great upper back builder and foundational strength exercise. However, I have also come to realize that it is very technical lift as opposed to the deadlift, which almost suits to every body structure and can be learned easily as it is mentioned in PTTP. As far as I have experimented with front squat, I can say there are two major points that should be taken into consideration: up-right torso and not-tucked-in pelvis(butt wink).
Click to expand...

The Deadlift

The Deadlift does not suit every body structure. Some individuals are built for it. Other individuals are not suited for it.

Front Squat

The primary factor in maintaining an upright position is core strength. Think of the core as a "Bridge" between the racked bar position and your legs.

Core Strength

A Bridge has support beams between both ends. The support beams ensure that the Bridge does not sag or collapse.

Increasing Core Strength amount to building strong support beams between one end of your "Bridge" and the other.

If a Bridge's support beams are not strong enough to handle the load between the two ends, it will sag in the middle and eventually collapse.

Thus, to ensure your maintain an upright position in the Front Squat, you need to have a strong "Bridge".

I've also done great amount of research regarding what affects ability to maintain upright torso during squats. I've come to realize that varying factors contribute to one's ability to stay upright. They include femur bone length, thoracic spine flexibility, ankle flexibility and torso length. No matter how hard I try to stay upright, including having open chest and flat upper back, my torso is never close to perpendicular to floor. My knees pass my toes, my back is flat and even flexed, but I am not upright. It is 30 degrees at most. But most of the time, if I don't flex my upper back, my torso is around 45 degrees to the floor with a straight back.
Click to expand...

It's unclear whether your referencing the Back or Front Squat. With that in mind, let's examine both

Back Squat Forward Lean

There will be some Forward Lean in the Back Squat. The degree of Forward Lean is dependent on how you are built. It is also dependent on if you are performing High or Low Bar Squats.

Squats Part 1: Fold-Ability and Proportions


This is an excellent video with Tom Purvis (Physical Therapist) that examine the reason of why some lifters have more Forward Lean than others; what is acceptable and what is not.

Center of Gravity (COG)

One of the keys to pushing/pulling more weight is keeping the bar as close to your body's Center of Gravity as possible.

The farther the bar drifts from your Center of Gravity, the greater the Torque. Torque increases the True Weight on the bar. That means that whatever you are lifting is heavier than it really is.

Maintaining Upright Front Squat Position

Losing your upright position in the Front Squat (no matter how you are build) magnifies the bar weight. It increased the load on the core, primarily the erectors.

Contributing Factors

1) Leg Strength: The legs are often not strong enough to drive the weight up.

When the legs stall in driving the weight up, the survival mechanism kicks in. To ensure movement is maintained, the body will engage the lower back to keep the upward movement going and to assist in standing up with the weight.

Most lifter who inappropriately engage Forward Lean in the Back and Front Squat have a very strong back and lack leg strength.

2) Abdominal Strength: Strong abdominal muscles help you maintain a more upright position in the Front Squat. Strong abdominal muscles also ensure your Back Squat Forward Lean is optimal, not exaggerated.

3) Torso Length: Individual with long torso usually needs to focus on more abdominal work.

Remember, your torso is "The Bridge" between your bar rack and legs. The longer the Bridge, the more support beams needed to ensure the that it does not sag or collapse.

"Leakage"

Dr Stuart McGill is one of the leading researchers with spine research. core training.

As per McGill, a weak core cause Power/Strength "Leakage". The amount of Power and Strength between the legs in lower body movement is lost when the core is weak.

Because I cannot keep my torso upright, I decided kettlebell front squats would be a better choice than barbell front squat. What do you generally think about upright torso requirement for barbell front squats?
Click to expand...

Kettlebell Front Squats

They are a good option if they allow you to maintain an upright position. They will provide some work for the abdominal muscle while working the legs.

With that said, lowering the weight in a Front Squat will achieve the same objective.

However, performing Front Squats with a Barbell or Kettlebell lighter load does not resolve the issue.

At some point, if you use a really heavy Front Barbell or Kettlebell Squat, you are going to have some Forward Lean.

That because you have not addressed the main issue; increasing abdominal strength.

Solution

1) You need to increase your abdominal Strength.

Best Ab Exercises
Inside the Muscles: Best Ab Exercises | T Nation

Dr Bret Contreras' research provide some of the best exercises.

2) You need to increase your Leg Strength.

Dumbbell Step Ups and Lunges are exercises that place the work load on the legs.

The increase in Leg Strength ensure you maintain momentum and do not default to a Forward Lean in an Front Squat when you stall.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Glen said:
@nyet07 Typically your the weight will stay over your feet in any squat - if your leaning forward it means your hips are having to travel backwards.

This happens often if ankles are tight and knees dont move forward. If yours are moving forward past your toes it could be your femur length is long - normally resolved by taking a wider stance in my experience
Click to expand...

I have long femur bones. So you are correct. I usually have to compromise by opening my legs wider.
 
@kennycro@@aol.com

Thank you for your long post. I was mainly talking about the front squat. I have basic skills, technique and strength to complete a front squat. My main problem is femur bone length so I try to compromise by taking wider stances but that also requires greater mobility which I lack. I have a lot of adductor magnus that makes it harder to stretch.

And I don't agree with your idea that deadlift is not suitable to every body structure. Although there may be exceptions, it is suitable for very majority of people as opposed to squats which needs to meet with mobility and proportion requirements. Deadlift in the end is just picking up something from the ground and that is something everybody does.
 
nyet07 said:
@kennycro@@aol.com

And I don't agree with your idea that deadlift is not suitable to every body structure. Although there may be exceptions, it is suitable for very majority of people as opposed to squats which needs to meet with mobility and proportion requirements. Deadlift in the end is just picking up something from the ground and that is something everybody does.
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Out Squatting Your Deadlift

If the Deadlift was truly suited for everyone, everyone would out Squat their Deadlift. However, everyone doesn't.

Deadlift Technique

The Deadlift is not as technical a lift compared as other movements. However, technique is involved in the Deadlift.

If simply picking a heavy weight off the floor was that simple, then everyone would pull heavy loads; they don't.

Types of Deadlifts

1) Olympic Lifter Deadlift: The technique of this Deadlift is to drive the weight off the weight off the floor with you legs. The lower back maintains a neutral position.

The objective of an Olympic Deadlift is to increase strength for the first pull off the floor for a Snatch or Clean.

A neutral back position MUST be maintained so that the lower back is correctly positioned for the explosive second pull.

The Olympic Lifter Deadlift is an effective exercise for Olympic Lifters. However, it is ineffective for Powerlifters.

2) The Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift: Some Upper Back Rounding is acceptable. It positions the bar closer to the body's Center of Gravity, thereby decreasing the torque. That allows you to pull more weight, decreasing the lower back loading.

Lower back rounding dramatically increases the probability of an injury.

The majority of lifters don't knowing the difference between these to technique, even when they see them. It all looks the same to them.

Conventional Powerlifting Deadlifters break the weight off the floor first with the lower back, the legs assist.

The muscle firing sequence is: Back > Legs > Back. (Research Dr Tom McLaughlin)

3) Sumo Deadlift: This Powerlifting Deadlift place the workload on the legs. The bar is broken off the floor with the legs with an assist from the lower back.

The muscle firing sequence is: Legs > Back. (Research Dr Tom McLaughlin)

4) The Squat Stance Deadlift: This is a hybrid between a Conventional and Sumo Deadlift; the legs and back equally sharing the load.

Ed Coan is the "Poster Child" for this method.

Take Home Message

There not much technique required for picking something lift off the floor.

Picking really heavy Deadlift off the floor requires technical skill.

The muscle involvement, muscle firing sequence and technique is different for each types of Deadlift listed above.

Personal Perspective

I am built for the Deadlift. What I can definitively tell is that when I or someone else technically pulls a Deadlift correctly, it feel like it's gliding on rails, similar to how a bar glides up on a Smith Machine.

When my or someone else's technique is marginally off on a near Max Deadlift, it's a back breaker.

That because when someone's Deadlift is marginally off essentially increases the true bar weight. Thus, they are lifting more than what is really on the bar

Kenny Croxdale
 
nyet07 said:
And I don't agree with your idea that deadlift is not suitable to every body structure. Although there may be exceptions, it is suitable for very majority of people as opposed to squats which needs to meet with mobility and proportion requirements. Deadlift in the end is just picking up something from the ground and that is something everybody does.
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I'm with you.

-S-
 
@Glen

I usually place my feet just outside shoulder-width or couple inches wider with my toes pointing out 15 to 30 degrees outside.
 
@nyet07 if you look at my stance im about what you suggested/stated and as I said im fairly blessed with a squatters build. Have you tried going wider still?
 
@kennycro@@aol.com

I do not understand your point. In your first post you stated that deadlift is not suited for every body structure. Saying so is reasonable yet such claim needs to come with adequate proofs. However, you do not mention WHY deadlift is not suited for everybody. In your second post the proof you've provided,

kennycro@@aol.com said:
If the Deadlift was truly suited for everyone, everyone would out Squat their Deadlift. However, everyone doesn't.
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is not helpful either. Then you continued to explain different deadlifting techniques and I appreciate the extra information but they again don't precisely explain why deadlift is not suited to every body structure. Then you've come to a point where you finally state deadlift is not just "picking something from the floor but rather combination of technique, strength, and 'something else'". I understand your point that deadlift is "not just picking something off the floor" but DO NOT understand why it is not suitable to everybody. Neither of your posts provide satisfying explanations.

kennycro@@aol.com said:
Picking really heavy Deadlift off the floor requires technical skill.

The muscle involvement, muscle firing sequence and technique is different for each types of Deadlift listed above.
Click to expand...

These again do not explain why.

Only true instance I can think of is a person who has very uneven leg and torso ratio where legs are very long and torso is very short. Even very opposite body structure would allow a person to deadlift easily.

I can, however, explain why squat is a technical lift and may not be done by everybody,

1-)The most important criteria is where your femur bones are inserted in your hips. It affects how deep you squat, how wide you squat and so on.
2-)Squats require a lot of flexibility: in ankles, wrists, upper back, neck, and hips
3-)It is much harder to get rid of a bad position since the weight sits on top of a person.
4-)Femur bone length greatly affects how good and effective your squats are.
5-)And at last but not least, I don't consider squats to be a natural movement pattern.

With deadlifts you have none of the problems above.
 
Glen said:
@nyet07 if you look at my stance im about what you suggested/stated and as I said im fairly blessed with a squatters build. Have you tried going wider still?
Click to expand...

I listen to what my body says. For now just outside shoulder-width feels okay. I will record myself doing front squats and decide later based on what I see.
 
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