Barbell The Front Squat and Maintaining Up-Right Position

[nyet07]

I'm with you.

-S-

Thank you,

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

@kennycro@@aol.com

I do not understand your point. In your first post you stated that deadlift is not suited for every body structure. Saying so is reasonable yet such claim needs to come with adequate proofs. However, you do not mention WHY deadlift is not suited for everybody. In your second post the proof you've provided,

I...DO NOT understand why it is not suitable to everybody. Neither of your posts provide satisfying explanations.

Fair enough.

Tom Purvis', Physical Therapist, two podcast addresses some of your questions and provide additional information...

The Deadlift Part 1


The Deadlift Part 2

I can, however, explain why squat is a technical lift and may not be done by everybody,

1-)The most important criteria is where your femur bones are inserted in your hips. It affects how deep you squat, how wide you squat and so on.
2-)Squats require a lot of flexibility: in ankles, wrists, upper back, neck, and hips
3-)It is much harder to get rid of a bad position since the weight sits on top of a person.
4-)Femur bone length greatly affects how good and effective your squats are.
5-)And at last but not least, I don't consider squats to be a natural movement pattern.

With deadlifts you have none of the problems above.

Yes, the Squat is more technical than the Deadlift. However, technique is still involved with the Deadlift.

With that said, some of the information you listed above about the Squat relates to the Deadlift.

In other word, Leg Length and Body Proportions (Anthropometry) are major factors that determine if you are built to Squat, Deadlift, etc.

"I don't consider the squat to be a natural movement pattern" means that it not natural to you, nor is it natural to me.

You're statement indicates that you are not built to Squat. Nor am I.

That doesn't mean that you can't become more proficient at the Squat. It just requires more work.

I obtained a respectable Squat through more work on technique and specifically designed exercises. My Squat require constant work and focus.

My Deadlift require a minimal amount of work and technique.

Individual who are built to Squat find it to be a natural movement. Traditionally, someone built to Squat often finds Deadlifts "Unnatural".

Kenny Croxdale

 

[jca17]

Out Squatting Your Deadlift

If the Deadlift was truly suited for everyone, everyone would out Squat their Deadlift. However, everyone doesn't.

I thought the same thing as nyet when I saw this the other day. If the sentence is saying what I think it is, it means something different than your argument. The fact that most people do NOT out squat their deadlift indicates that the deadlift is a more natural way to hoist that amount of weight. When people's squats are at or higher than their deadlift, its usually because their squat is transforming into a deadlift with the bar on your back. When nyet says he doesn't consider a squat a natural movement, I don't think he's talking about how it feels to him, he's just talking about the movement pattern in general. Toddlers, with no outside instruction, will essentially deadlift things to pick them up. I have never seen a toddler attempt to back squat something to pick it up.

While I know there are people who should not deadlift, of all the powerlifts/olympic lifts/compound lifts, I imagine the deadlift is applicable to the most people whereas overhead work, bench press, and squat would have more cases of people who aren't quite ready or have a condition that prevents safe, healthy practice.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I thought the same thing as nyet when I saw this the other day. If the sentence is saying what I think it is, it means something different than your argument.

Your reading something else into what I stated. "I think" equates to guessing; you aren't sure.

The fact that most people do NOT out squat their deadlift indicates that the deadlift is a more natural way to hoist that amount of weight.

The Deadlift is a simpler movement than the Squat. The simpler a movement is the less time required to learn the skill. However, there is a technique to it involved.

When people's squats are at or higher than their deadlift, its usually because their squat is transforming into a deadlift with the bar on your back.

A Squat and Deadlift are two definitely different movements. Thus, individual who Squat more than they Deadlift are NOT "transforming" there Squat into their Deadlift.

The Tom Purvis' podcast looks at the differences between the Squat and Deadlift. Purvis' examines how Leg Length and Body Proportions (Anthropometry) are determinate factors in why some individuals are good Squatters and some are good Deadlifters.

A research article ex National Strength and Conditioning's Research Journal, a few years ago, addressed the belief that the Deadlift is a Squat that you pull off the floor. The biomechanical analysis and EMG's data demonstrated that the Deadlift is NOT a Squat pulled off the floor.

Nor would, as you "think", a good Squatter "Squat his/her Deadlift".

When nyet says he doesn't consider a squat a natural movement, I don't think he's talking about how it feels to him, he's just talking about the movement pattern in general.

To reiterate, "I don't think" is guessing.

As someone who works with strength athletes and with a background in Powerlifting, I can definitely state that individuals have been training a particular movement for a period of time that state they find it "Unnatural" means they are NOT built for that particular exercise.

As many individuals do, they only see the world from their perspective. Thus they believe that if it's "Unnatural" for them, it is "Unnatural" for the rest of the world, "Tunnel vision."

Toddlers, with no outside instruction, will essentially deadlift things to pick them up. I have never seen a toddler attempt to back squat something to pick it up.

That in part is due the fact that there are no Squat Racks made for toddlers. Just joking.

Actually, toddlers often Squat when they take a s*** in their diapers, just as adults Squat to take a s*** on a commode.

Ironically, "The Squatty Potty" stool is now sold for commodes so that adults can emulate the how a toddler Squats to take a s***. Research show this the optimal way.

While I know there are people who should not deadlift, of all the powerlifts/olympic lifts/compound lifts, I imagine the deadlift is applicable to the most people whereas overhead work, bench press, and squat would have more cases of people who aren't quite ready or have a condition that prevents safe, healthy practice.

The Deadlift is a simpler movement compared to the Squat and Bench Press. However, as with all movements there a definitely optimal method (Technique) of picking up heavy weight.

Deadlifts, Squats and Pressing movement are "Functional Movements" that are natural. That because everyone, every day utilize these movement.

Not much technique is required for normal every day activities that require these daily activities.

However, when lifting a Barbell or heavy objects, that all changes.

An interesting side bar is that Trap/Hex Bar Deadlifts are easier to learn and preform than Traditional Barbell Deadlifts.

The caveat that make this so interesting is that research has demonstrated that Trap/Hex Bar Deadlift is biomechanically a Squat.

Thus, Trap/Hex Bar Deadlifts are NOT what many people "Think" they are.

Tom Purvis' Squat and Deadlift Podcast provides some great information on the Squat and Deadlift.

There's some great research data on Squat and Deadlift the can be found on line.

I enjoy providing information (as most here). What you decide the information that I provide is up to you.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[jca17]

When nyet says he doesn't consider a squat a natural movement, I don't think he's talking about how it feels to him, he's just talking about the movement pattern in general.

To reiterate, "I don't think" is guessing.

nyet, what are you thoughts? The beauty of discussion.

Also, the moment we think we "know" how this stuff works, we are more lost than ever. May we keep guessing and thinking and learning and growing.

 

[Andre Kai Duran]

Maybe a return to your original question: "What do you generally think about upright torso requirement for barbell front squats?"
1. I have long femurs as well. I use the same stance as my back squat stance but really focus hard on IAP before descending and really externally rotate my femurs. Think...make a hole for your torso to sit in.
2. Zercher Squats, even light ones will help you learn how to maintain an upright torso.
3. I warm-up with Zercher Squats, then Back Squats (using Wendler), and then Front Squat right after. The PAP (post-activation potentiation) effect of back squats before Front Squat makes the load seem more manageable.
Good luck!

 

[JeffC]

For the Clean receiving position, and Pull(for that matter) you want to be as vertical as possible. For less shear forces on the back, better force transfer from the spring out of the bottom, and for "The Column of Support"(one of my favourite cues).

For Front Squats as a strength exercise forward lean is ok as long as the weight is resting in the shoulders, not on the hands, and not rolling off. Hands and arms should be relatively loose. You can hook only the first two fingers under the bar, or hold onto lifting straps, but a full grip, all four fingers under the bar, is harder, and you will not be able to use as much weight as with only Two fingers.

The Front Squat is different from other Squat variations because the shoulders should be projected forward and up, while maintaining a flat or slightly arched back. This creates the pockets for the bar to rest for a stable Front rack, and you are not choking yourself out or restricting blood flood to the brain.

Ever see, anyone, or you yourself pass out or almost pass out in a Clean or Front Squat. Not fun. My first coach told me. Soon enough everyone finds out why the plates are the size that they are.


PS: Do not use the Bodybuilding, arms crossed Front rack. Try Frankenstein Front Squats. No hands arms outstretched. We would do No Hand Catches often and then get the hands on the bar, in Jerk Grip, on the Pop. Behind the Neck Clean and Jerks are also fun and impressive, just don't let your coach catch you doing them.

Do Zerchers instead. The Zercher Squat, or Zercher Lift(even better), have all or more benefit of the Front Squat, with none of the draw backs or very specific flexibility required. Once you adapt to holding the Bar in the creases of the arms it is not that uncomfortable. Or use an Axel to spread the load.

 

[MikeBelanger]

I used to have a hard time staying upright with the front squat too. Plus, I always felt like I was going to keel forward the lower I went into position. Even after getting the exercise coached at a CrossFit gym for 3 months.

Then, (unexpectedly) my front squat improved after 6 months of nothing but weighted pistols, swings and kettlebell strict presses. I should mention that my other barbell exercises deteriorated at this point. So my deadlift 1RM went down 10lbs, my backsquat 1RM went down about 15! But lo and behold, my front-squat 1RM went up by about 10lbs (175lb -> 185lb). Plus, I didn't feel like I was going to keel forward.

Now, the above story might just say more about my own deficiencies then the general efficacy of doing weighted pistols, swings and strict presses. So I'm cautious to recommend my program to you, but I feel the need to share it with anyone who might be looking for further understanding anyways. Or at least some more ideas.

I should mention I have relatively short legs too, not sure if the femur itself is proportionally longer than the rest of the leg, say relative to whatever the normal position is.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

When nyet says he doesn't consider a squat a natural movement, I don't think he's talking about how it feels to him, he's just talking about the movement pattern in general.


nyet, what are you thoughts? The beauty of discussion.

Also, the moment we think we "know" how this stuff works, we are more lost than ever. May we keep guessing and thinking and learning and growing.

The First Step To Learning

...is as you noted, guessing and thinking.

The Second Step

1) Examining research data pertaining to the subject.

PubMed.com is an excellent source. It provide Abstract (Cliff Notes) scientific research from the US National Library of Medicine on just about everything you want.

2) Examining anecdotal data, talk to real life experienced successful veteran lifters and coaches in the field.

Often research works backward. It identifies training method that work and them tries to determine the underlying reason of as to why it works.

The Third Step

1) The most efficient method is to work with a successful veteran lifter/coach who understands the "Cause and Effect" of specific training protocols. In other word, they know what works but may not know why it works.

The main issues for (especially novice lifters and some intermediate lifter) is being able to separate "The wheat from the chaff"; what's valuable and what's worthless, who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't.

The key to making that determination is knowledge.

If you're unable to find a veteran lifter, that leave you with...

2) The "Earn While You Learn" Method, self experimentation.

That means taking the training concepts you have learned via research. Then writing a Training Program based on that information.

There a definite learning curve involved with this method; "Trial and Error" can be frustrating when it's not working.

The key to success with any endeavor is to not give up. It's like baking a cake. You most likely have all the right ingredients. You just need to modify the amount of ingredients you're mixing into "Your Cake" (Your Training Program).

As an example, wrote a successful Training Program that increased my Deadlift 50 lbs in just over a year. My Deadlift went from 545 to 595 lbs.

I then wrote an Advance Training Program (adding something else to the program).

The Advance Training Program eliminated the gains that I had made. My Deadlift went from 595 down to 550 lbs.

After that dismal year, I rewrote my program with the same "Ingredients". However, I revised the amounts; increasing some and decreasing others. By doing so, my Deadlift increased to 617 lbs/285 kg that year.

Learning is a trying process for everyone, even for a genius.

Einstein, "Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing."

Thomas Edison: Edison didn't view failed attempts as eliminating what didn't work so that he eventually found.

Summary

It starts with "Thinking", guessing and speculating.

However, where the "Rubber meets the road" is when it is followed up with research (scientific and anecdotal) and application (self experimentation).

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Steve Freides]

Hello Everybody,

I am one of those people recently began experimenting with barbell front squat since I began considering it to be great upper back builder and foundational strength exercise. However, I have also come to realize that it is very technical lift as opposed to the deadlift, which almost suits to every body structure and can be learned easily as it is mentioned in PTTP. As far as I have experimented with front squat, I can say there are two major points that should be taken into consideration: up-right torso and not-tucked-in pelvis(butt wink).

It took a great effort for me to fix my butt wink problem when squatting. I had to do a lot of goblet squats including "prying" (I have no idea what the hell it means btw), and I've also done lots of stretch for my adductor magnus. I have too much muscle in that area by nature and they really reduce flexibility.

I've also done great amount of research regarding what affects ability to maintain upright torso during squats. I've come to realize that varying factors contribute to one's ability to stay upright. They include femur bone length, thoracic spine flexibility, ankle flexibility and torso length. No matter how hard I try to stay upright, including having open chest and flat upper back, my torso is never close to perpendicular to floor. My knees pass my toes, my back is flat and even flexed, but I am not upright. It is 30 degrees at most. But most of the time, if I don't flex my upper back, my torso is around 45 degrees to the floor with a straight back.

Because I cannot keep my torso upright, I decided kettlebell front squats would be a better choice than barbell front squat. What do you generally think about upright torso requirement for barbell front squats?

I'm quoting your original post in this thread.

If you're OK posting a video of your squat, please post it here. If not, and you're OK with sending it to me, PM me and I'll give you some feedback on what you're doing.

When I start working with a new student, I begin with the goblet squat. You mention not getting what "prying" is - we work a lot on this. I use the goblet squat to teach what I'll call "active flexibility" - using your strength to become more flexible. After reading your post again, my guess - and I want to stress that it's only a guess until I see your front squat - is that you have issues that are addressable but haven't been addressed yet.

My approach is that everyone should squat and squat well, but that not everyone needs to load up their squat. As a general guideline, I prefer that people load up their hip hinge with kettlebell swings and/or barbell deadlifts, and that they work on squatting beautifully with no weight, and with a light weight for counterbalance, and with a pair of kettlebells. If you can do those things well, you can also learn to do the barbell front squat well, but the barbell front squat isn't my first choice of a teaching tool.

Hope that's of some help to you.

-S-

 

[jca17]

I've been training the Zercher Squat for a while now, and as others have mentioned, it helps teach an upright torso. I think one of the big things for me has been a misconception about butt wink. I used to imagine that it was mainly a flexibility issue, running out of usable range of motion because of tightness. While that can contribute, I found that the problem was not having a strong enough core or not tensing the core/bracing well enough. I am putting way more focus and feed-forward tension into bracing my core: keeping my upper and lower body connected through the pelvis, and it has helped me maintain a stable back position through the full range and keep the torso upright.

Try some hardstyle planks, or the hollow position from a pullup bar.
If you have two lighter kettlebells, try a double bottom's up front squat. That is the move that an SFG first let me see butt wink magically disappear from my form.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I used to imagine that it was mainly a flexibility issue, running out of usable range of motion because of tightness. While that can contribute, I found that the problem was not having a strong enough core or not tensing the core/bracing well enough. I am putting way more focus and feed-forward tension into bracing my core: keeping my upper and lower body connected through the pelvis, and it has helped me maintain a stable back position through the full range and keep the torso upright.

Strong Core

This reinforce the information in my #11 post. One of the main reason individuals have a problem in maintaining an upright position in a Squat, especially a Front Squat is inferior core strength.

"...Keeping My Upper and Lower Body Connected"...

jca17 reiterates the information in my #11 post. In that, I went over how the torso is "The Bridge" that connects the lower and upper body.

A bridge need support beams between one end and the other to assure it does not buckle under the load.

Weight belts provide a similar effect as a bridge support beams, increasing support between the "Upper and Lower Body".

Pushing on the belt with your abs (Bracing) increases Intra-Abdominal Pressure, IAP. IAP stabilizes/braces the spine allowing you to maintain a more upright position.

However, the amount if IAP "Bracing" produced is dependent on your Core Strength. Greater abdominal strength enables your to maintain an upright position.

Forward Lean

A common fallacy amount lifter when Back or Front Squatting that bend forward (Forward Lean) into a quazi -"Good Morning" is that the lower back is the weak link.

Ironically, in cases like this the lower back is actually the "Strongest Link" in the chain. When the bar stops moving in an exercise, the body goes into "Survival Mode". It will do whatever it takes to get the weight up.

In doing so, the body will then shift the load to the strongest muscle group to assure you survive, get the weight up.

The issue with Forward Lean is usually (as jca17 noted)...

Weak Abs

A large part of the abdominal function is to keep you upright.

If your abs are weak, your torso is going to fold like a cheap card table.

Try some hardstyle planks, or the hollow position from a pullup bar.

Planks

As jca17 stated, is a great exercise when it is preformed correctly. The issue is the many individual preform it incorrectly, minimizing the abdominal training effect.

Additional Abdominal Exercises

The optimal method of increasing the strength and/or size of muscle is by utilizing a variety of exercise, working the muscle from different angles.

Best Ab Exercise
Inside the Muscles: Best Ab Exercises | T Nation

Dr Bret Contreras provide research data on some of the Best Abdominal Exercise to rotate in and of your training program.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[nyet07]

I'm quoting your original post in this thread.

If you're OK posting a video of your squat, please post it here. If not, and you're OK with sending it to me, PM me and I'll give you some feedback on what you're doing.

When I start working with a new student, I begin with the goblet squat. You mention not getting what "prying" is - we work a lot on this. I use the goblet squat to teach what I'll call "active flexibility" - using your strength to become more flexible. After reading your post again, my guess - and I want to stress that it's only a guess until I see your front squat - is that you have issues that are addressable but haven't been addressed yet.

My approach is that everyone should squat and squat well, but that not everyone needs to load up their squat. As a general guideline, I prefer that people load up their hip hinge with kettlebell swings and/or barbell deadlifts, and that they work on squatting beautifully with no weight, and with a light weight for counterbalance, and with a pair of kettlebells. If you can do those things well, you can also learn to do the barbell front squat well, but the barbell front squat isn't my first choice of a teaching tool.

Hope that's of some help to you.

-S-

Thank you for your offer. I will PM you once I get the video ready. It may take a while so I don't promise whether it will be soon or not.