'The Game Changers' Documentary

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I had not heard of Dr Norton before...
Norton

Two of Norton's defining areas of research are on...

1) Leucine: This amino acid activates mTOR (Mammalian Target of Rapamycin). mTOR triggers muscle growth when the right amount is consumed at the right time.

The Right Amount

Between 2.5 - 4.5 grams needs to be consume during a meal.

Higher quality protein are dairy and meats. Approximately 8% is composed of Leucine.

Whey Protein contains the highest percentage, between 10 - 12%. That along with how quickly it is digested is why Whey is often referred to as the Anabolic Protein.

Vegetable Proteins are low in Leucine and protein quality.

As an example, you'd need to consume two cups of bean and rice get close to the right amount of what you need. That is one of the downsides of the Vegan Diet.

One of the solutions for someone on a Vegan Diet is to supplement (add Leucine) to the meal.

Added leucine makes wheat protein as anabolic as whey

Wheat protein is a low quality protein with a low Leucine content.

Norton's research found spiking Wheat Protein with Leucine eliminated that issue.

The Age Factor

Younger individual need about 2.5 gram of Leucine per meal to trigger mTOR.

Older individual need over 3.0 gram of Leucine per to trigger mTOR.

Younger individual's system are much more efficient that older individuals. Thus, the reason for the difference.

2) Refractory Period

Norton, along with other researchers, determined that a certain amount of time between protein feedings optimized protein synthesis, mTOR.

They determined that consuming a meal every 4 - 6 maximized protein synthesis. The dogma of eating every three hours is less effective.

Analogy

Think of the Protein Refractory Period like let's say heavy Squat Training. A heavy "Squat Refractory Period" (the amount of time between training sessions) is at least 48 hours.

The same is true with "Medication Refractory Periods". Some medications are prescribed once or twice a day. Taking them more often is counter productive.

Dr Donald Layman

Layman worked with Norton on the Leucine research.

Layman research determined that the majority of individual only consume enough protein (Leucine) at dinner. The amount of protein consumed at breakfast and lunch are not enough to trigger mTOR.

That is one of the reason that as most individual age, they lose muscle mass. Only consuming one "Anabolic Meal" a day isn't enough to maintain muscle mass, let along increase it.

Between Meal Protein Snacks

Research shows this dogma is counter productive. However, it continues to be perpetuated.

However, based on Norton's research it appears that consuming the supplement Leucine or Branch Chain Amino Acids approximately 1.5 hour after and 1.5 before is effective at triggering mTOR.

Additional research indicates when Leucine is taken with a 6 grams of a quickly, anabolic, complete proteins such as Whey; protein synthesis (the anabolic effect) is enhance even more.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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HUNTER1313

More than 500 posts
Just curious Kenny.
I am following the OMAD (one meal a day), but about half an hour or so before I eat and on the way home from work I have what I like to call my recovery drink. It's bcaa, glutamine, creatine, and some greens powder. Then like I said, about half an hour to an hour after that I eat. Usually meat, veggies, and super grains porridge with quinoa and hemp seeds with a protein shake dumped on top.
Would this be sufficient? Or am I doomed to have to start packing a few protein shakes for the day?
 

HUNTER1313

More than 500 posts
It's almost a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Ie. On one hand we want the health,longevity, and hormonal benefits of fasting. But, some of us want to maintain and actually gain some muscle which necessitates the pulses of leucine. Can we actually have our cake and eat it too?
 

HUNTER1313

More than 500 posts
If the dosing and timing that is prescribed is true, if I have a shake around 9am and one around 1pm, then have my bcaa recovery shake around 5-530pm (since a dose of leucine is said to help make the next meal more anabolic) then eat after 6pm, I should be good. As long as I want to forgo the whole fasting.
 

LukeV

More than 300 posts
It's almost a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Ie. On one hand we want the health,longevity, and hormonal benefits of fasting. But, some of us want to maintain and actually gain some muscle which necessitates the pulses of leucine. Can we actually have our cake and eat it too?
Exactly! I want big muscles and to live forever. Anyone know what the sweetest combination of Mtor and fasting would look like?
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I am following the OMAD (one meal a day), but about half an hour or so before I eat and on the way home from work I have what I like to call my recovery drink. It's bcaa, glutamine, creatine, and some greens powder. hen like I said, about half an hour to an hour after that I eat.
Recovery Drink

The Recovery Drink is fine. However, base on Norton's recommendations, it would be better if you waited about 90 minutes before you had you meal.

I am following the OMAD (one meal a day)
One Meal A Day

That works for ramping up AMP-K (Activated Protein Kinase) which assist in the fat burning process and other health benefits. However, when AMP-K is up mTOR (the muscle building process) is down.

Think of AMP-K and mTOR as being on opposite side of a See Saw. When one is up, the other is down.

Cardio Endurance Training and Resistance Training

Research shows that Cardio Endurance Training produce AMP-K. Cardio is provide health benefits. However, it also blocks mTOR

Research found Resistance Training increases mTOR.

However, when Resistance Training was preformed first than followed by Cardio Ensurance Training, is negated the mTOR Strength Training effect.

The research determined performing Endurance Cardio, taking a rest and then Resistance Training increased mTOR.

The downside to that is if you perform Endurance Cardio first, your Resistance Training Program will suffer.

The most effective method is to either train them on seperate days or train one in the morning and the other in the afternoon.

Ebb and Flow

Life revolves around the ebb and flow of the ocean, night and day.

With that said, an ebb and flow are necessary for health and increasing muscle mass.

Consuming food is anabolic, especially with a well written diet.

Research shows that maintaining Muscle Mass and Strength are vital to longevity.

As Dr Donald Layman's research noted, dinner is the only meal the the majority of individual have a day that has enough Leucine to trigger mTOR.

One meal a day of consuming the right amount of Leucine doesn't maintain muscle mass, let along increase muscle mass. That is one of the reason that most people gradually lose muscle mass over time, as they age

It's somewhat like working one week a month. As each month passes, you get farther behind with your bills.

then have my bcaa recovery shake around 5-530pm (since a dose of leucine is said to help make the next meal more anabolic) then eat after 6pm,
What The Point?

To reiterate, Norton found that consuming Leucine or Branch Chain Amino Acids provided a great effect if they were consumed an hour and a half before and after a meal.

Consuming Leucine and/or BCAA thirty minutes to an hour before a meal doesn't appear to be the best method promoting mTOR.

The Sponge

Think of protein synthesis like a sponge. When you have a meal, the sponge is soaked with water.

If you spill something and try to wipe it up with a wet sponge, the sponge is too wet to absorbed the water spilled.

However, if you allow the sponge to dry out, it will soak up the water you spilled.

The same applies to, let's call them "Muscle Sponge", Protein Synthesis. You need to allow the "Muscle Sponge" to dry out (Refractory Period).

Kenny Croxdale
 

wespom9

More than 500 posts
Certified Instructor
Knowledge

The issue with that philosophy is that it limits you knowledge on these diets. It eliminates you from any discussion on the Vegan, Ketogenic and Paleo Diet.

Secondly, you learn the upside and downside of each.

Part of the learning process involves learning what works and what doesn't work. In other words, you learn how implement and incorporate the strength of each and avoid the pitfalls.

....

That amount to reading the positive and negative research on the topic.

The second part is gaining practical experience, first hand knowledge.
Good points Kenny. I agree with consuming information from both sides of an argument, as it prevents getting lost in the echo chamber of ones' own beliefs. The intent of my post, however, is encapsulated with the following comment:

Yes all good points!
There is however one caveat, that is everything/everybody you cite have some credibility in science/nutrition/biology/etc

Whereas the documentary is very much pure entertainment, done by purely entertainment people that are only recognized for their fictional proficiency rather than experience in the subject at hand...
Hence I fully agree with the sentiment of not getting education from an entertainment source
There are many people I respect, from industry names like Norton, colleagues, friends etc. who have expressed dissatisfaction with the movie. Why would I watch it, when I can go read other more reputable sources to get a more nuanced view? I have not seen it myself, and won't comment on the validity of it, but enough people have warned me off of it to not want to spend my time watching it.


Take Home Message

As Alwyn Cosgrove (Strength Coach) said, ...

"No one ever got dumbber by reading a book."

That applies to watching podcast, reading research articles, attending seminars, exchanging information on sites like this, etc.

Kenny Croxdale
One MUST be a consumer of information to gain wisdom. However, I would rather spend my time on higher quality sources to help form my views.

One thing I love about this forum, and this includes your own posts, is that I know I can count on thoughtful views, credible sources, etc. to help learn. I understand you did not mean this as a rebuke to my learning process and I hope I don't come across as offensive, but I think it's important to discuss the validity of our educational resources.
 

HUNTER1313

More than 500 posts
So how many doses are optimal? So far we've established to keep the doses four to six hours apart, but how many are needed? Are we back to the old bodybuilder days of set your alarm clock to get a dose mid sleep?
 

LukeV

More than 300 posts
So how many doses are optimal? So far we've established to keep the doses four to six hours apart, but how many are needed? Are we back to the old bodybuilder days of set your alarm clock to get a dose mid sleep?
From my reading three daily bouts of dietary triggered Mtor just about maxes out the benefit but there is time in the day for four. But you have to be careful about what you consume during the Mtor period (lasts about 90 minutes after the Leucine is digested, which can be a while if you're relying on leucine in food rather than easy to absorb supplements) because things like coffee, alcohol, curcumin etc blunt the signal when Mtor is triggered by diet. Exercise triggered Mtor is not blunted by diet. It's also not a great idea to chronically trigger Mtor due to its negative side effects and the desirability of AMPK
 

HUNTER1313

More than 500 posts
Norton

Two of Norton's defining areas of research are on...

1) Leucine: This amino acid activates mTOR (Mammalian Target of Rapamycin). mTOR triggers muscle growth when the right amount is consumed at the right time.

The Right Amount

Between 2.5 - 4.5 grams needs to be consume during a meal.

Higher quality protein are dairy and meats. Approximately 8% is composed of Leucine.

Whey Protein contains the highest percentage, between 10 - 12%. That along with how quickly it is digested is why Whey is often referred to as the Anabolic Protein.

Vegetable Proteins are low in Leucine and protein quality.

As an example, you'd need to consume two cups of bean and rice get close to the right amount of what you need. That is one of the downsides of the Vegan Diet.

One of the solutions for someone on a Vegan Diet is to supplement (add Leucine) to the meal.

Added leucine makes wheat protein as anabolic as whey

Wheat protein is a low quality protein with a low Leucine content.

Norton's research found spiking Wheat Protein with Leucine eliminated that issue.

The Age Factor

Younger individual need about 2.5 gram of Leucine per meal to trigger mTOR.

Older individual need over 3.0 gram of Leucine per to trigger mTOR.

Younger individual's system are much more efficient that older individuals. Thus, the reason for the difference.

2) Refractory Period

Norton, along with other researchers, determined that a certain amount of time between protein feedings optimized protein synthesis, mTOR.

They determined that consuming a meal every 4 - 6 maximized protein synthesis. The dogma of eating every three hours is less effective.

Analogy

Think of the Protein Refractory Period like let's say heavy Squat Training. A heavy "Squat Refractory Period" (the amount of time between training sessions) is at least 48 hours.

The same is true with "Medication Refractory Periods". Some medications are prescribed once or twice a day. Taking them more often is counter productive.

Dr Donald Layman

Layman worked with Norton on the Leucine research.

Layman research determined that the majority of individual only consume enough protein (Leucine) at dinner. The amount of protein consumed at breakfast and lunch are not enough to trigger mTOR.

That is one of the reason that as most individual age, they lose muscle mass. Only consuming one "Anabolic Meal" a day isn't enough to maintain muscle mass, let along increase it.

Between Meal Protein Snacks

Research shows this dogma is counter productive. However, it continues to be perpetuated.

However, based on Norton's research it appears that consuming the supplement Leucine or Branch Chain Amino Acids approximately 1.5 hour after and 1.5 before is effective at triggering mTOR.

Additional research indicates when Leucine is taken with a 6 grams of a quickly, anabolic, complete proteins such as Whey; protein synthesis (the anabolic effect) is enhance even more.

Kenny Croxdale
So I should have two to three shakes a day and a good meal. As for the shakes should I just have my bcaa drink, whey, or bcaa with a little whey added since leucine with a little protein is "super" anabolic
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
So I should have two to three shakes a day and a good meal. As for the shakes should I just have my bcaa drink, whey, or bcaa with a little whey added since leucine with a little protein is "super" anabolic
Test Drive It

Sound like a good plan. The only way you'll know is to try it and find out.

"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing." Einstein

Kenny Croxdale
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
As a conversation starter I think it is a success, whatever its inherent bias.

It delivers in the only two areas that really need to make it into mainstream consciousness:

- you can physically perform at the highest of levels on a vegan diet.

- there are some VERY high costs associated with industrial level supply of animal nutrition which the general public is largely uninformed.
 

Steve A

Double-Digit Post Count
As a conversation starter I think it is a success, whatever its inherent bias.

It delivers in the only two areas that really need to make it into mainstream consciousness:

- you can physically perform at the highest of levels on a vegan diet.
I think this should be re-phrased to "some people can." There are far more reports of people (including those at very high levels of athletic endeavor) who had their performance decrease.
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
I think this should be re-phrased to "some people can." There are far more reports of people (including those at very high levels of athletic endeavor) who had their performance decrease.
Unless one has a food intolerance or allergy to soy or legumes, any failure is almost certainly due to lack of knowledge when constructing the diet.

This IMHO is the one aspect of vegan high performance dieting that is extremely tough to work around, as they are such a high value source of protein, supplements aside.

More skilled folk might be able to correct me on this.
 

Steve A

Double-Digit Post Count
Unless one has a food intolerance or allergy to soy or legumes, any failure is almost certainly due to lack of knowledge when constructing the diet.

This IMHO is the one aspect of vegan high performance dieting that is extremely tough to work around, as they are such a high value source of protein, supplements aside.

More skilled folk might be able to correct me on this.
Looking in FoodData Central and comparing essential amino acid contents of meats vs cooked beans, for almost all the EAAs it would take consuming soybeans at 150% - 200% the quantity of meat required. With beans (I looked at pinto beans) a person would need to consume 300% to 400% as much to equal the EAAs in meat. So being lazy with the math, if one needed to eat a pound of meat a day to get the essential amino acids that person needed, they could replace that pound of meat with about two pounds of soybeans or four pounds of pinto beans, or some combination thereof. It can be done, certainly. It seems plausible that many of the failures could be attributed to not knowing how to figure out how much was needed (assuming a deficiency of protein was the cause of the failure) but it also seems plausible that simply the consumption was difficult for one reason or another.
 

North Coast Miller

More than 2500 posts
@Steve A
Honestly by weight I don't eat a lot of meat products anyway. It wouldn't be any trouble to eat double the legume by weight compared to most meats, I just shrink my "starch" portions a little or swap them out entirely.

I put on about 20 lbs lean weight on nearly 100% vegan / 100% vegetarian diet. As long as your digestive system is OK with legumes and soy it really isn't difficult. All the rest of the diet is not very different.

I'll say this, it takes a lot less know how/planning to get all your nutrition if animal products are added to the list, makes it easier by far.
 

the hansenator

More than 500 posts
For what it's worth, I was just listening to a podcast where they had an expert on tendon health. Sorry, I don't remember his name. But he mentioned that vegetarian and vegan athletes tend to have more soft tissue injuries. And he talked about the use of gelatin and collagen in his treatments.
 
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