prash_1990
First Post
Interesting! Have you personally tried something like this? I briefly considered something like this while I was in the planning phase for Keto, although I wasn't aware of such a mechanism.
Nutrition The ketogenic diet + S&S combination
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Interesting! Have you personally tried something like this? I briefly considered something like this while I was in the planning phase for Keto, although I wasn't aware of such a mechanism.
I just wrote about this at some length elsewhere. If you read the Warrior Diet, which is still my favorite tome on the subject of fasting in its various forms, you'll find the author talks about the "clear" or "lean and mean" feeling you get. I believe that, for most people, that's ketosis.
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Ketogenic-Intermittent Fasting Diet
I've been on the Ketogenic Diet for two years are a health condition. I combine it with Intermittent Fast during the week. That because research shows Intermittent Fasting may also help me.
Thus, I am "Keto Adapted", I use ketones for energy. Thus, my system is efficient at using ketones but does not access glucose well.
The opposite is true people on High Carbohydrate Diets. They are efficient at using glucose and inefficient at using ketones/body fat.
Metabolic Flexibility
Dr Mike T. Nelson found that people who consume carbohydrates and do Intermittent Fasting enable the body to use either glucose or ketones, dependent on the activity/sport.
Similarities
The Ketogenic Diet and Intermittent Fasting have some similar health benefits.
Kenny Croxdale
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ali
Level 7 Valued Member
I ask this openly and honestly.....
what do people mean by Keto?
what do people mean by ketosis?
do people know when they are either on the ketogenic diet or believe themselves to be in ketosis that they are in the physiological state that they think they are?
and if so how? blood ketones? low blood glucose? ketones in urine?
or by feeling? no desire for sugar hits? stable mood? some other feeling/emotion?
Are you thinking about keto or the ketogenic diet because of health issues/fat loss/some lifestyle or perhaps because everyone seems to be doing the damn thing?
the hybrid car analogy...or metabolically flexibility.....
does this mean being able to switch from carb burning to fat burning and/or using both depending on exercise and intensity or lack thereof?
and/or does it also mean being able to utilise ketones too? what about lactate? does it also mean being suitably conditioned for athletic pursuits to use lactate efficiently too?
I would genuinely like to know some definitions because the discussion of the pros and merits of keto get lost amongst the avocados and coconut oil.
It's troubling, this trend. Ok, everyone can do what they want to do to themselves but I've heard and read enough drivel on the subject that there is reasonable doubt to deduce a high level of confusing information out there. One example: a popular primal paleo podcast featured a couple of peeps of the keto diet discussing the issues and came out quite openly to mock the view of a phd scientist who wasn't offering any opinion other than correcting their view of science. I find it worrying, being honest, hence my questions.....
what do people mean by Keto?
what do people mean by ketosis?
do people know when they are either on the ketogenic diet or believe themselves to be in ketosis that they are in the physiological state that they think they are?
and if so how? blood ketones? low blood glucose? ketones in urine?
or by feeling? no desire for sugar hits? stable mood? some other feeling/emotion?
Are you thinking about keto or the ketogenic diet because of health issues/fat loss/some lifestyle or perhaps because everyone seems to be doing the damn thing?
the hybrid car analogy...or metabolically flexibility.....
does this mean being able to switch from carb burning to fat burning and/or using both depending on exercise and intensity or lack thereof?
and/or does it also mean being able to utilise ketones too? what about lactate? does it also mean being suitably conditioned for athletic pursuits to use lactate efficiently too?
I would genuinely like to know some definitions because the discussion of the pros and merits of keto get lost amongst the avocados and coconut oil.
It's troubling, this trend. Ok, everyone can do what they want to do to themselves but I've heard and read enough drivel on the subject that there is reasonable doubt to deduce a high level of confusing information out there. One example: a popular primal paleo podcast featured a couple of peeps of the keto diet discussing the issues and came out quite openly to mock the view of a phd scientist who wasn't offering any opinion other than correcting their view of science. I find it worrying, being honest, hence my questions.....
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Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
@ali
I'm no nutrition or health care expert but I have some personal experience which may or may not be relevant.
I had a serious bout with Candida in 2012-2013. Divorce, mortgage, taxes.. blah...blah
It was the worst time of my life. If you don't know about Candida you won't be able to relate. It's a yeast overgrowth problem in the gut and in advanced cases it can perforate the intestinal wall and enter the blood stream. At this point it can really start to wreak havoc, enter the brain and literally drive you insane. I was pretty close to that point. Very few people can beat it on their own, even the medical community can be of limited assistance.
Enter the Candida diet. Granted I used many other tools but the main thing was cutting blood sugar to the absolute minimum as the fungus feeds on it. It's the most bland, restrictive diet I've ever experienced. It took about 2 years but I finally beat it completely.
During the diet I was probably in ketosis but never tested as it wasn't necessary. I did find that after the horrible symptoms subsided that my mood and energy levels were very good, and I was ripped (6-8% BF). I never want to be on that diet regimen again though. Me and high blood sugar are a problem waiting to happen so hence my interest in keto type strategies.
Check out "The Complete Guide to Fasting" by Jason Fung MD
There are many benefits to these eating strategies that I have personal experience with. Until then, fasting was unheard of for me. Now I see the huge benefits. Many cultures around the world practice it and for good reason IMHO.
I'm no nutrition or health care expert but I have some personal experience which may or may not be relevant.
I had a serious bout with Candida in 2012-2013. Divorce, mortgage, taxes.. blah...blah
It was the worst time of my life. If you don't know about Candida you won't be able to relate. It's a yeast overgrowth problem in the gut and in advanced cases it can perforate the intestinal wall and enter the blood stream. At this point it can really start to wreak havoc, enter the brain and literally drive you insane. I was pretty close to that point. Very few people can beat it on their own, even the medical community can be of limited assistance.
Enter the Candida diet. Granted I used many other tools but the main thing was cutting blood sugar to the absolute minimum as the fungus feeds on it. It's the most bland, restrictive diet I've ever experienced. It took about 2 years but I finally beat it completely.
During the diet I was probably in ketosis but never tested as it wasn't necessary. I did find that after the horrible symptoms subsided that my mood and energy levels were very good, and I was ripped (6-8% BF). I never want to be on that diet regimen again though. Me and high blood sugar are a problem waiting to happen so hence my interest in keto type strategies.
Check out "The Complete Guide to Fasting" by Jason Fung MD
There are many benefits to these eating strategies that I have personal experience with. Until then, fasting was unheard of for me. Now I see the huge benefits. Many cultures around the world practice it and for good reason IMHO.
@ali, we keep keto testing strips here - easy to use, and no question about the results. You pee on the end of the test strip, it changes color, you compare the color with the pictures on the package. It couldn't be simpler, and you can check yourself as often or as infrequently as you wish.
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Great book, love it.
ali
Level 7 Valued Member
@Steve Freides .....you are producing ketones and getting rid of them. You do not know if they are being utilised by your tissues. It is ketosis but that does not mean you have entered ketogenesis.
On the other hand you could be burning fat and be very efficient at doing so and produce a lot less ketones and utilise, or not, the ones you do produce. Here, with urine measures, it may encourage you to eat more fat, fast longer, just to get a measure in your urine, when you are functioning perfectly fine.....you see what I mean.
Also, you could eat a mixed diet, or even a high carb one, fast and produce ketones.
@Bret S. .....I get the use of ketogenic diets for medical purposes and treatments. And absolutely, low carb to stabilise blood sugar. I think the 'keto' is just sexed up low carb. And yeah fasting too in that sense, eating less, in other words.
I don't like the demonizing of food, unless it's grapefruit and cauliflower....gherkins too probably for that matter, horrible things! Not against keto at all but very anti the anti carb thing.
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Haha, I actually love grapefruit, cauliflower..meh..it's ok, never heard of a gherkin.
Don't get me wrong, I love carbs and could eat spaghetti daily. Put a quart of ice cream in front of me and watch it disappear. I crave huge russet potatoes and eat them occasionally, along with a T-bone steak and I'm in heaven.
I eat the way i do because my body dictates it as stated previously. In my previous life carbs were king, and still are for feel good. I know if I haven't eaten enough carbs by feel, or eaten too much for that matter.
I'm on a pretty 'clean' diet during the week, but on weekends I'll splurge here and there and eat the ultra tasty foods. I've learned what puts me on the blood sugar roller coaster and eat in a way that protects my body as I haven't a choice in the matter.
Keto for me, if I could figure out a strategy that works, would be very body friendly. For now low/slow carbs have to primarily rule the day.
What you're describing, to the extent that I understand it, does not agree with my experience.
E.g., I had a splurge day yesterday, and this morning, a keto strip test showed nothing. For me, it has proven to be a reliable indicator as related to the amount of carbs in my diet.
I would like to see sources as regards producing ketones when you don't need them. My understanding of the process is that our bodies only produce them when we need them for fuel.
As to functioning, I am what @kennycro@@aol.com called, if memory serves, a metabolic hybrid. I function well either way, but I notice the difference in how I feel. I'd describe the feeling of ketosis as "great" and otherwise as "good".
Fasting produces ketones for the same reason eating a high-fat diet does - they're needed for fuel. One can be in ketosis as a result of fasting, as a result of a high-fat diet with little carbs, or both, but not neither. This is my understanding.
I'm afraid I may be missing your point.
-S-
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
I like gherkins....
I definitely eat whatever, though I now have an aversion to nutritionally garbage food, whatever the macros. I don't eat a ton of pasta or store bought bread products - the occasional roll or bun for hotdogs/hamburgers. I eat a lot fewer carbs than I used to and fewer than I thought when I actually totaled it up - toast with breakfast, fruit, rice, potatoes, veg.
My rules are simple:
Seek out additional protein
Avoid additional fat
Source my carbs from whole foods whenever possible
Bread products should be organic whenever possible and homemade
From what I understand about ketone bodies they are generated in the absence of glucose reserves - if you are producing them in quantity you are burning them for energy as there is no alternative, and the Ketone bodies cannot be stored as is. IDK if the reaction is reversible but I don't think so.
They allow the body to generate ATP more rapidly than oxidizing Palmitate, the usual form of fatty energy production.
I definitely eat whatever, though I now have an aversion to nutritionally garbage food, whatever the macros. I don't eat a ton of pasta or store bought bread products - the occasional roll or bun for hotdogs/hamburgers. I eat a lot fewer carbs than I used to and fewer than I thought when I actually totaled it up - toast with breakfast, fruit, rice, potatoes, veg.
My rules are simple:
Seek out additional protein
Avoid additional fat
Source my carbs from whole foods whenever possible
Bread products should be organic whenever possible and homemade
From what I understand about ketone bodies they are generated in the absence of glucose reserves - if you are producing them in quantity you are burning them for energy as there is no alternative, and the Ketone bodies cannot be stored as is. IDK if the reaction is reversible but I don't think so.
They allow the body to generate ATP more rapidly than oxidizing Palmitate, the usual form of fatty energy production.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Your Issue The Ketogenic Diet
1) You have no practical experience with the Ketogenic Diet.
That amount to coaching a sport you have only read about and never played.
2) "I don't like the demonizing of food"...it depend on fhe food and various other factors.
From my perspective it not so much the food itself, it the amount consumed; "The poison is in the dose."
Dictionary
The dictionary would provide you with what Keto is and what Ketosis is.
The majority of people come up with their own meanings for ketosis, which is generally incorrect, based a lack of education on the subject.
1) Ketone Test Strips: This initially work, providing you with information on if you are in ketosis and the degree. However, at some point the Keto Test Strip become unreliable. That based on research data and my own personal experience of being on the Ketogenic Diet for two years.
2) No Desire For Sugar: That is one on of the indication that you are in the ketone ball park.
3) Lipid Profile: This provides some feed back. The primary indicator is a drastic drop in Triglycerides.
Triglycerides are triggered by carbohydrate consumption. High carbohydrate consumption elevates Triglycerides; an ultra low Triglyceride reading demonstrates very low carbohydrate consumption.
Triglyceride reading below 150 are considered good. My Triglyceride reading is 51 to 55.
4) Elevated LDL: LDL is primarily drive by Saturated Fat. Thus, a higher LDL reading indicates you are consuming a greater quantity of Saturated Fat.
The determinate factor of LDL being good or bad isn't how high the number is. The determinate factor is the percentage of LDL Particle A (good) or Particle B (bad) that you have.
This can easily be determined by your Triglyceride:HDL Ratio, another topic for another time.
Determining you health condition based on how high or low your LDL alone amounts to guessing.
Thus, an increase in LDL and slight elevation in HDL along with a dramatic drop in Triglycerides indicate you are somewhere in the "Ketone Ball Park."
Very Few People Are Doing The Ketogenic Diet
1) Take your own survey and you will find that very few people are doing it the Ketogenic Diet or really know anything about it.
2) Those who think they are doing the Ketogenic Diet are NOT. The majority are on a high fat, high protein, low carbohydrate, which kicks you out of ketosis (via gluconeogenesis).
3) The majority of individual who try the Ketogenic Diet quit. That due to the fact that the diet is too demanding and most people don't have much will power.
4) Some people are on a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet; 5 days on the Keto Diet and then a two day carbohydrate reload.
This is NOT a Ketogenic Diet. Research has demonstrated that two days of carbohydrate reloading take around 3.5 to 4 days of being back on the Ketogenic Diet before you get into ketosisagain.
That means you are only in ketosis for 1 to 1.5 days during the week.
Energy Systems
Let me underscore this again.
The Ketogenic Diet works with the ATP and Oxidative Energy System.
It is sub optimal for Glycogen Energy System Training Programs.
Carbohydrate Consumption
Carbohydrates are not necessarily bad. The issue is the over consumption of carbohydrate; this is one of the primary factors with the increase in diabetes and the projection that by 2030 one-third of American will be diabetic.
Low intake of carbohydrate are okay. The amount is dependent on such thing as if you are Insulin Resistant, Diabetic, or a Glycogen Energy Athlete (where higher carbohydrates are needed).
Take Home Message
It's hard to understand something you have not done.
With that said, I have some understanding of you view on this.
I have initially disputed varies diet and training information in the past base on a lack of knowledge and no practical experience.
After doing more research and personally experimentation, I became a advocate rather than a critic with such things as: Post Activation Potentiation Training, Occlusion Training, Cluster Sets, Intermittent Fasting, the Kegogenic Diet, etc.
Kenny Croxdale
1) You have no practical experience with the Ketogenic Diet.
That amount to coaching a sport you have only read about and never played.
2) "I don't like the demonizing of food"...it depend on fhe food and various other factors.
From my perspective it not so much the food itself, it the amount consumed; "The poison is in the dose."
Dictionary
The dictionary would provide you with what Keto is and what Ketosis is.
The majority of people come up with their own meanings for ketosis, which is generally incorrect, based a lack of education on the subject.
1) Ketone Test Strips: This initially work, providing you with information on if you are in ketosis and the degree. However, at some point the Keto Test Strip become unreliable. That based on research data and my own personal experience of being on the Ketogenic Diet for two years.
2) No Desire For Sugar: That is one on of the indication that you are in the ketone ball park.
3) Lipid Profile: This provides some feed back. The primary indicator is a drastic drop in Triglycerides.
Triglycerides are triggered by carbohydrate consumption. High carbohydrate consumption elevates Triglycerides; an ultra low Triglyceride reading demonstrates very low carbohydrate consumption.
Triglyceride reading below 150 are considered good. My Triglyceride reading is 51 to 55.
4) Elevated LDL: LDL is primarily drive by Saturated Fat. Thus, a higher LDL reading indicates you are consuming a greater quantity of Saturated Fat.
The determinate factor of LDL being good or bad isn't how high the number is. The determinate factor is the percentage of LDL Particle A (good) or Particle B (bad) that you have.
This can easily be determined by your Triglyceride:HDL Ratio, another topic for another time.
Determining you health condition based on how high or low your LDL alone amounts to guessing.
Thus, an increase in LDL and slight elevation in HDL along with a dramatic drop in Triglycerides indicate you are somewhere in the "Ketone Ball Park."
Very Few People Are Doing The Ketogenic Diet
1) Take your own survey and you will find that very few people are doing it the Ketogenic Diet or really know anything about it.
2) Those who think they are doing the Ketogenic Diet are NOT. The majority are on a high fat, high protein, low carbohydrate, which kicks you out of ketosis (via gluconeogenesis).
3) The majority of individual who try the Ketogenic Diet quit. That due to the fact that the diet is too demanding and most people don't have much will power.
4) Some people are on a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet; 5 days on the Keto Diet and then a two day carbohydrate reload.
This is NOT a Ketogenic Diet. Research has demonstrated that two days of carbohydrate reloading take around 3.5 to 4 days of being back on the Ketogenic Diet before you get into ketosisagain.
That means you are only in ketosis for 1 to 1.5 days during the week.
Energy Systems
Let me underscore this again.
The Ketogenic Diet works with the ATP and Oxidative Energy System.
It is sub optimal for Glycogen Energy System Training Programs.
Carbohydrate Consumption
Carbohydrates are not necessarily bad. The issue is the over consumption of carbohydrate; this is one of the primary factors with the increase in diabetes and the projection that by 2030 one-third of American will be diabetic.
Low intake of carbohydrate are okay. The amount is dependent on such thing as if you are Insulin Resistant, Diabetic, or a Glycogen Energy Athlete (where higher carbohydrates are needed).
Take Home Message
It's hard to understand something you have not done.
With that said, I have some understanding of you view on this.
I have initially disputed varies diet and training information in the past base on a lack of knowledge and no practical experience.
After doing more research and personally experimentation, I became a advocate rather than a critic with such things as: Post Activation Potentiation Training, Occlusion Training, Cluster Sets, Intermittent Fasting, the Kegogenic Diet, etc.
Kenny Croxdale
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ali
Level 7 Valued Member
Sorry, not making myself clear....
My general point... the quest to be in ketosis with a focus on high fat whilst at the same time demonising and avoiding nutrient dense foods just because they contain carb is not a healthy diet.
And then specifically. ....the confusion and different interpretations of the keto diet.
My take.....you can eat a very healthy and balanced diet, be an efficient fat burner and not pay any attention to ketone levels.
As @kennycro@@aol.com states he is on a ketogenic diet for a medical reason. It's a medical intervention not a lifestyle choice, for him.....a good post Kenny, thank you
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Metabolic Flexibility
I am not sure who came up with this term but it wasn't me.
Dr Mike T. Nelson (Intermittent Fasting Researcher) goes into how how Intermittent Fasting help you become efficient at using ketones or glucose.
Kenny Croxdale
You are way off the mark as far as describing my approach to eating and to ketosis is concerned.
I am not demonizing anything.
Personally, I have never had much of a taste for fruit - I am allergic to uncooked apples, to cranberries, and don't do well with lots of other fruit as well. I love bananas, I just don't eat them every day.
I've been a follower of the Warrior Diet for close to 20 years, but early on, I realized it was an approach, not a prescription, and I adapted it to my body, tastes and needs with great success. I'm a more recent fan of ketogenic (sp?) eating.
I eat what I like to eat because it tastes good and makes me feel better - it's really not any more complicated than that. As a person who, through most of my adult life had a big "sweet tooth", I find not wanting sweets quite liberating.
And I cannot find a doctor who'll look at me and say anything other than, "I wish I was as healthy as you." My good cholesterol number is very high, and this has been shown to be not only _not_ bad, but protective of good health. I pass for younger than my chronological age, often by decades, I own a number of powerlifting records, I can still run, swim, and ride a bicycle whenever I choose, my wife loves me, and my children find me somewhere between puzzling and ridiculous.
Seriously, how is any of this bad?-S-
ali
Level 7 Valued Member
@Steve Freides. . Please Steve, my remarks were not directed at you personally. And if I have offended you in anyway it was and is not intended. So I am sorry for that.
Adam R Mundorf
Level 6 Valued Member
Keto is too fragile of a state in my opinion for someone to pursue long term. I prefer to be fat adapted, which is where I think most people end up if they pursue ketosis. Because ketosis causes too much restriction and one wrong food can throw you out of ketosis.
@ali, talking about demonizing always concerns me. If someone is demonizing carbs, I'm with you - I just don't see that happening here on this thread.
@Adam Mundorf, there is no big downside to a healthy person for dropping out of ketosis, so I don't see how it's a fragile. As others have observed, some of us have been going in and out of it for years.
-S-
@Adam Mundorf, there is no big downside to a healthy person for dropping out of ketosis, so I don't see how it's a fragile. As others have observed, some of us have been going in and out of it for years.
-S-
Abdul-Rasheed
Level 6 Valued Member
Can you please elaborate on ATP and oxidative energy systems and how different training programs fit with it? Glycogen energy system is same as ATP, yes? These terms always confuse me.
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