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Kettlebell The Kettlebell Snatch

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banzaiengr

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Video from Kettlebell Kings and the Texas Kettlebell Academy. Just would like comments on what is shown here. I think the tell is when he says "soften it up". As Strongfirst is hard style SFG's will likely disagree with this instruction. I'm not saying right or wrong, I'm just trying to learn. Thanks

Kettlebell Technique | The Kettlebell Snatch
 
Girevoy sport or GS is about getting the maximum number of reps in 10 minutes. It is about endurance. This means your technique must be as efficient as possible to minimize fatigue so you can go the distance. Hence the focus on "softening it up." Even among GS athletes there are variations. For instance, I don't necessarily do all the things he does.

Hardstyle or HS is about building power and strength so the idea is to make things harder. For instance, Pavel has written that for HS you actually pull the KB down from the top of the swing or snatch to generate more eccentric force. In GS, you actually lean back a bit, as demonstrated in the video, to use your bodyweight to soften the impact at the bottom and generate less eccentric force. This saves the grip and back.
 
Girevoy sport or GS is about getting the maximum number of reps in 10 minutes. It is about endurance. This means your technique must be as efficient as possible to minimize fatigue so you can go the distance. Hence the focus on "softening it up." Even among GS athletes there are variations. For instance, I don't necessarily do all the things he does.

Hardstyle or HS is about building power and strength so the idea is to make things harder. For instance, Pavel has written that for HS you actually pull the KB down from the top of the swing or snatch to generate more eccentric force. In GS, you actually lean back a bit, as demonstrated in the video, to use your bodyweight to soften the impact at the bottom and generate less eccentric force. This saves the grip and back.

I see said the blind man. Thanks Mike, it is my thought that the more I know about how not to do it, the more I will know about doing it correctly.
 
With GS, that's just it--it's a sport. The training focuses on making the athlete as energy efficient in the event as possible in order to perform the highest amount of reps: an endurance competition.

With "Hardstyle," the KB is the means to an end, rather than the goal. Here, the exercises are intended to develop strength and other physical attributes apart from kettlebelling without getting too wrapped up about the numbers.

Neither one is the "right" way to train; that can only be determined by the athlete in terms of his/her goals.
 
GS is primarily aimed at very specific competitive goals but in getting there....strength/power and endurance get well developed by necessity.

Pretty hefty piece of work I would say!
VF Workout 138 - Kettlebell Snatch 40kg / 88lb - Ivan Denisov

I have been playing w/ sport (GS) style lately and really enjoying it. Two things stand out-- 1) There is a heck of a lot going on there that is quite different from hard style, and yes not better or worse but so very different. and 2) I think gentler on the body or at least feels so to my beat up old carcass
 
Hello,

I have a question, maybe a bit weird.

We often consider the snatch as a ballistic "high rep set". However, would it be interesting to work on heavy snatches (related to our bodyweight) as a grind, to hit for example between 2 and 5 reps each side @50% bdw (for instance) ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
We often consider the snatch as a ballistic "high rep set". However, would it be interesting to work on heavy snatches (related to our bodyweight) as a grind, to hit for example between 2 and 5 reps each side @50% bdw (for instance) ?

Yes, several of us have been doing heavy snatches in small rep sets for quite some time. But it's always going to be a ballistic movement, not a grind.
 
Hello,

I have a question, maybe a bit weird.

We often consider the snatch as a ballistic "high rep set". However, would it be interesting to work on heavy snatches (related to our bodyweight) as a grind, to hit for example between 2 and 5 reps each side @50% bdw (for instance) ?

Kind regards,

Pet'


It would be tough to do safely with really big loads and actually put it overhead using a hardstyle swing. I have been working on increasing weight using it as a full snatch to overhead squat. Is still a very tricky move, but a great exercise.



And here's Steve Cotter doing som eGS drills with a heavy KB
 
Something I pondered the other during and after a snatch test in ROP.....at what point does power and strength HS training become more about endurance? And does, or should, technique change?
If you use the volume control to dial the output back a tad for energy conservation in a test are there other ways to maximise endurance whilst still being HS? Other than of course appropriate training to get you there!!
I found that my HS breathing morphed into a softer breath, and I don't know, more blow-ey, if that describes a controlled huffy-puffiness. The snatch and the testing of it is something that I need to invest a lot more time into.....perfectly fine with training it low rep EMOM/A&A/MAf but a little confused about test technique. Any suggestions?
 
Great questions, @ali ... here are my thoughts.

at what point does power and strength HS training become more about endurance?

There's a right weight bell for either. For example, I snatch the 24kg for power and strength, up to 10 per set, but usually 5 per set. It is the heaviest bell I can snatch with good technique. I snatch the 16kg for endurance, up to (my PR) 211 reps in 10 min without setting the bell down. Besides being my SFG "snatch test" bell, the 16kg is the right one to max out on everything -- muscular endurance and cardio, without one giving out before the other. If I snatched the 24kg continuously, the muscular endurance would give out before my cardio even got close.

And does, or should, technique change?

I would say no, it should not change. A hardstyle snatch is a hardstyle snatch. It might look a little different, but all the same standards apply, and all the same attributes (taming the arc, etc.) will help.

If you use the volume control to dial the output back a tad for energy conservation in a test are there other ways to maximise endurance whilst still being HS? Other than of course appropriate training to get you there!!

The volume control "range" is less for snatches as compared with swings. If your volume knob on swings can go from, let's say, 2 to 10, then with a snatch it can only be 7-9. These are arbitrary values, but what I mean is that anything less than a 7 and you won't get the bell up to lockout, and anything greater than 9 and you'll overpower it and have trouble stabilizing it at the top.

But for your real question there, are there other ways to maximize endurance whilst (I love that word ;)) still being HS? Yes; 1) finding a bit of relaxation in the lockout rather than maximum tension; let the bell rest on the shoulder structure rather than all muscle holding it... keep the legs tight but not max-tight; 2) find the most vertical path of the bell both up and down; 3) use as much hip power as possible so you don't rely on the arm/shoulder for anything other than guiding the bell to lockout; 4) get the timing right in the hinge; 5) use your breathing to help you.

I found that my HS breathing morphed into a softer breath, and I don't know, more blow-ey, if that describes a controlled huffy-puffiness. The snatch and the testing of it is something that I need to invest a lot more time into.....perfectly fine with training it low rep EMOM/A&A/MAf but a little confused about test technique. Any suggestions?

A biomechanical breathing match is the way to go, of course... Inhale as the bell is coming down and into the hinge, and "tssssaa!" on the hip snap (not at the top of the snatch as people often do) and exhale more as needed on the rest of the up-trajectory and/or in lockout. Now, can that change? I used to restrict myself to this, even during a snatch test. An additional in-out breath can be taken a the top, if needed. But I've come to believe that it's a bit restrictive, and I find myself letting the breath go as it needs to once I get about 40 or 50 snatches into a continuous effort. I'm not sure this is the "party line" on this... just my perspective. It seems that if appropriate abdominal pressure can be maintained throughout the movement where needed, then alternative breathing is acceptable. I'll caveat that by referring back to the first question -- if I'm snatching 24kg, my breathing is matched. I need all the help I can get. If I'm snatching 16kg, my torso can maintain appropriate tension without the additional "help" from the breath. Does that make sense?
 
@Anna C, tremendous, very helpful. Little while before another test for me....next scheduled is after completion of 5 ROP rungs. This one was after 4. But I'll experiment with the extra breath to gauge how it feels on some snatch days. I'm having a sneaky week off, sshh!
Does that make sense?
.....crystal, thank you.
 
Very good! I guess I have a bit more to add.... on regulating the test effort.

I would categorize snatch tests as such:

1) Max reps in given time (for example, the TSC - max reps in 5 minutes with specified weight)
1a) A person who can not do 100 in 5 min /200 in 10 min
1b) A person who can do more than 100 in 5 min / more than 200 in 10 min

2) Specified reps in given time or less (for example, the SFG snatch test - 100 reps in 5 min or less)
2a) A person who can not do required reps within time
2b) A person who can do required reps in time with a 20 sec or less to spare
2c) A person who can easily do required reps within time

So the focus might be:

1a) This person likely can't hold the bell for 5 minutes straight and is forced to take breaks, setting the bell down during the effort. Waiter's walks, slow-get-ups, or sets of snatches with 6-sec or 10-sec pause in lockout (idea from @Steve Freides in a past thread) will help with this, and may be one path to improvement. Beyond that, see 2a) below.

1b) This person can snatch well but will be looking for technique tweaks like actively throwing the bell down into the hinge, and other tricks to improve the cadence while hitting the technique standards for each rep. They also might do better by holding back a bit (pacing themselves) in the first 80% of the time, then sprinting to the end. Credit to @aciampa for this idea... it worked well for me in the last TSC, where I got 133 reps w/ 16kg in 5 min.

2a) Strength, skill, technique, hinge power, grip endurance, and cardio... all needed. Swings will help a lot -- no need to get all this from snatches. Mainly, just keep training -- but intelligently, not by killing yourself with effort and tearing your hands up.

2b) This person has the required strength and endurance but it's a really hard effort to get it done. The most important thing is getting an idea where your redline is. As with 1b) above, it's best to not push as hard as possible - but just a bit less than that - until the final minute. Again, just keep training, it gets easier.

2c) Good to go; just want to make it as easy as possible for quick recovery.

I usually try to get an idea what my average "best" pace is (for the given weight and for my current fitness -- it varies), then start out at that pace for a minute or so, slow down very slightly for the next few minutes, then speed up at the end. Also best if I can not set the bell down, and if I can hold the bell for 10 or more continuous snatches before a swing switch. (I might do better without a swing switch, but I prefer switching this way rather than hand-to-hand in the middle of a snatch). If I go too hard and am forced to set the bell down and rest, the result is not optimal and I usually feel like crap later.

I should also add, with most Hardstyle applications there is no requirement to hold the bell the whole time. Lots of people do set it down and take breaks. Some even do better with a sprint style -- sprint 10 reps, rest, sprint another 10 rest... sort of like the S&S "test" for 100 swings in 5 minutes. I just have a personal preference for the continuous effort if possible with snatches, and I feel like it works best for me in training and in testing.
 
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Great @AnnaC. That's a comprehensive overview of the many contingencies if ever there was one. Thanks for mapping it out like that.
 
I use GS style mostly for my snatches. My grip limits me for hardstyle. My GS style snatches have a more tamed arc, both up and down, which helps save my grip and prevent blisters better for me and my tiny hands which ties into Annas comments about recovery to be able to snatch again sooner. For me, it's about weight overhead; don't really care what technique (just not sloppy or harmful) I use to get there. Kind of like sumo vs conventional - whatever gets me locked out with the weight and doing both makes the other better.
 
It would be tough to do safely with really big loads and actually put it overhead using a hardstyle swing.
No - @Brett Jones is on video doing some fine, and easy-looking, snatches with a 48 kg. One of those "show reel" things.

Something I pondered the other during and after a snatch test in ROP.....at what point does power and strength HS training become more about endurance? And does, or should, technique change?
No - get stronger, and you'll be able to hard style the entire 100 snatches in 5 minutes. It becomes more about endurance only if you're doing an endurance event or test. The SFG snatch test isn't that, and neither is the SSST discussed in ETK.

-S-
 
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