Bodyweight The limits of weighted calisthenic strength?

[DaveS]

Hi all,

I've been revising my training routine over the last few months and easing my way back into training after a long layoff being repeatedly ill.

The routine im currently doing focuses on Kb Snatches, Pullups OAPUs and Pistols.

As i build back ill be adding weight to these (already am with Pistols) and it got me thinking, what are the known limits for weighted calisthenic strength? Im getting way ahead of myself but couldnt help wdering and trying to do calculations to approximate barbell strength standards but with weighted calisthenics and it automatically lead to that curiosity of just how much weight have people been able to do witht these moves?

In a powerlifting context its not difficult to look up raw natural world records and get a feel for it as so much is recorded for BP, Squat and Deadlifts but what about the calistheic equivilents?

Like if i built up to doing pistols with 2 x 32kg kettlebells racked (have done a less than technically perfect rep with 2 x 24kg pistols i. The distant past) combined with approximately half my bodyweight (75kg) would equate to over 100kg of load on one leg for as deep a squat as you can get, the equivalent of 200kg for two legs and so would represent 2.3 times my bodyweight and this as a front squat not a back squat! Add in the instability aspects etc and that would be a strong squat but how far have peop,e gone with it already? What about with a weighted OAPU and Pullup? One arm pullups seem to be towards the edge of strength limits for all but the skinniest rockclimbers but ive not seen many talk about weighted OAPUs and how much weight they could add yet it seems a legit move to do as a BP calisthenic substitute and Pavel emntions it as an option for increasing difficulty in NW.

Anyway enough ramblings, you get the picture, any thoughts strongfirst people?

Dave.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I think that, as a general rule, limits of weighted calisthenics are the same than barbells or kettlebells or pure calisthenics. Weighted calisthenics are a tool, so is kb for instance. Sooner or later, we may reach a plateau. Then, one has to adapt protocol to keep progressing. There is always the "debate" of transfer from weighted calisthenics to weightlifting or whatever though.

Weighted calisthenics may be harder to calibrate because of our bodyweight. Indeed, regarding how we are naturally built, a certain amount of additional muscle mass will be beneficial. Nonetheless, after a certain point, it may be detrimental. This can easily be noticed in weighted pull ups for instance.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[DaveS]

Hi

Hello,

I think that, as a general rule, limits of weighted calisthenics are the same than barbells or kettlebells or pure calisthenics. Weighted calisthenics are a tool, so is kb for instance. Sooner or later, we may reach a plateau. Then, one has to adapt protocol to keep progressing. There is always the "debate" of transfer from weighted calisthenics to weightlifting or whatever though.

Weighted calisthenics may be harder to calibrate because of our bodyweight. Indeed, regarding how we are naturally built, a certain amount of additional muscle mass will be beneficial. Nonetheless, after a certain point, it may be detrimental. This can easily be noticed in weighted pull ups for instance.

Kind regards,

Pet'

Hi Pet,

Yes, perhaps it is fairly simple of similar limits as barbell records, abit more than double body weight for BP, 3x body weight squat, deadlift unless drugged in which case fair bit higher. I remember reading about steve cotter pistoling 2 x 32kg kbs and pavel stating it ‘mutant’ level but never seen anything similar for weighted OAPUs.

Anyways interesting...?

Dave

 

[adefit]

great point bro. would you consider just getting better at bodyweight pull ups?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

if i built up to doing pistols with 2 x 32kg kettlebells racked (have done a less than technically perfect rep with 2 x 24kg pistols i.

Stabilizer Muscle Strength Training

Pistol Squats and other similar exercises that are unstable are effective at increasing the Stabilizer Muscle Strength.

While these Stability Exercises increase strength to some degree, the amount of strength developed in a Barbell Squat is very limited compared to other exercise.

Primary Muscle Strength Training

Maximizing Strength and Increasing Muscle Size (Hypertrophy) in the Primary Muscle is optimized when the Stabilizer Musclese are taken out of the equation. Doing so, allows you maximize the overload to the primary muscle in a movement.

Leg Press Vs Squat Example

1) Leg Press

This exercise allow for greater Quad development because it takes the Stabilizer Muscles out of the movement.

2) Squats

While Squat are a good leg exercise, the Squat does not allow for the legs to be completely overloaded in the movement.

That due to the limiting factor of the Stabilizer Muscle; primarily the lower back, which tires out long before legs do.

Thus, the lower back in a Squat is overloaded while the legs are under loaded.

A great article written years ago by Hollie Evett (National Powerlifting Champion and Strength Coach) was...

"When The Back Says NO and The Legs Say Go"

Evett's article provide exercised that allowed you to increase over loading the legs by minimizing the lower back.

Bodybuilder Hypertrophy Machine Training

One of the main reason Bodybuilder incorporate machine in their training is that greater muscle hypertrophy of the muscle occurs compared to Free Weight Movements.

With that in mind, let look at...

The Conversion Factor

As we know, performing only Leg Presses with a ton of weight has little to carry over to a Squat.

The Squat requires some skill/practice and the Stabilizer Muscles need to be strong enough to stabilize you.

With that in mind, let look at the most effective method of training Stabilizer Muscles in a movement.

Tudor Bompa On Stability Training and Devices

Tudor Bompa (a renowned sports scientist) literally wrote the book on Periodization Training

In a presentation at a national strength clinic, years ago, stability devices and exercise were the rage: BOSU Balls, Wobble Boards, etc.

When ask about Stability Training for sports and movement, Bompa replied...

"If you play on a wobble field, train on a wobble board"

Bompa went on to explain the best stability training for a sport and movement was the sport or movement itself.

The Women's Balance Beam in Gymnastics

As an example, Bompa noted that the most effective method of developing the Stabilizer Muscles for balance for the Balance Beam in Women's Gymnastics was Balance Beam Training.

BOSU Balls, Wobble Board, etc had virtually no carryover to the Balance Beam event.

With that said, Pistol Squat make you good at performing Pistol Squat but have very little carry over to Barbell Squats.

The distant past) combined with approximately half my bodyweight (75kg) would equate to over 100kg of load on one leg for as deep a squat as you can get, the equivalent of 200kg for two legs and so would represent 2.3 times my bodyweight and this as a front squat not a back squat!

The Pistol Squat Math Equation

Implementing a unilateral movement definitely allows you to increase strength in the weaker limb, in a well written and performed program.

However, while the math you provide makes some sense, the reality is that it doesn't add up in real life.

If you were to preform only Pistol Squats with the loads you noted, it would not be "the equivalent of 200kg for two legs".

Pistol Squat Training

While there is some value to Pistol Squat, it is lower on the list of Strength and Hypertrophy Training Exercises.

The following article by Charley Gould goes into some of the information that I have stated.

Gould also provides some information "The One Legged Squat", a "Better Alternative"; also know as...

The Step Up

This is one of the exercises that that I have posted information, for years, as a great method of increasing Leg Strength in the Squat.

One of the caveats of The Step Up that I recommend is to perform them while holding on to something like a Power Rack. Doing so provides greater stability; placing more of the work on the primary muscles.

Tip: Pistol Squats Are Dumb | T Nation

Here's what to do instead.

www.t-nation.com

Obviously, this is a poor title for the article.

I doubt the it was Charley's original title.

When writing for T-Nation, one of the agreement you sign off/agree to is allowing them to change the title and/or information in the article, if they decide to do so.

An example is...

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts?

Heavy kettlebell swings could be the best damn posterior chain exercise you're not doing, possibly even better than deadlifts! Here's why.

www.t-nation.com

This is a great article with a bad title.

At an annual NSCA'S National Strength and Conditioning Seminar, Dr Bret Contreras stated that was not his title for the article.

Contreras stated that T-Nation change the title and indicated that he wasn't pleased with what they changed it to.

 

[Hung]

i don't think it's equal between weight calisthenics and normal barbell/dumbell/kettlebell exercise like deadlift, squat, overhead press. With many calisthenics exercise, adding extra weight is quite easy - the weight rests on your body (like weight vest on pushing exercise), or was held between legs. Basically you feel becoming one with the weight is very nature. Not so with squat, dead, overhead press...getting under the bar right under the squat takes lots of time to learn for example.

 

[DaveS]

great point bro. would you consider just getting better at bodyweight pull ups?

Hey adefit, not sure what you mean here?!

 

[DaveS]

i don't think it's equal between weight calisthenics and normal barbell/dumbell/kettlebell exercise like deadlift, squat, overhead press. With many calisthenics exercise, adding extra weight is quite easy - the weight rests on your body (like weight vest on pushing exercise), or was held between legs. Basically you feel becoming one with the weight is very nature. Not so with squat, dead, overhead press...getting under the bar right under the squat takes lots of time to learn for example.

Good points q.Hung, i agree the specific positioning and skill demands are very different between different modalities, when i say 'equivalent' im thinking a similar strength level demand for the legs (in a pistol vs back squat scenario) rather than saying that someone could automatically back squat twice the load because they could Pistol half the load, if you see what i mean?

 

[DaveS]

Stabilizer Muscle Strength Training

Pistol Squats and other similar exercises that are unstable are effective at increasing the Stabilizer Muscle Strength.

While these Stability Exercises increase strength to some degree, the amount of strength developed in a Barbell Squat is very limited compared to other exercise.

Primary Muscle Strength Training

Maximizing Strength and Increasing Muscle Size (Hypertrophy) in the Primary Muscle is optimized when the Stabilizer Musclese are taken out of the equation. Doing so, allows you maximize the overload to the primary muscle in a movement.

Leg Press Vs Squat Example

1) Leg Press

This exercise allow for greater Quad development because it takes the Stabilizer Muscles out of the movement.

2) Squats

While Squat are a good leg exercise, the Squat does not allow for the legs to be completely overloaded in the movement.

That due to the limiting factor of the Stabilizer Muscle; primarily the lower back, which tires out long before legs do.

Thus, the lower back in a Squat is overloaded while the legs are under loaded.

A great article written years ago by Hollie Evett (National Powerlifting Champion and Strength Coach) was...

"When The Back Says NO and The Legs Say Go"

Evett's article provide exercised that allowed you to increase over loading the legs by minimizing the lower back.

Bodybuilder Hypertrophy Machine Training

One of the main reason Bodybuilder incorporate machine in their training is that greater muscle hypertrophy of the muscle occurs compared to Free Weight Movements.

With that in mind, let look at...

The Conversion Factor

As we know, performing only Leg Presses with a ton of weight has little to carry over to a Squat.

The Squat requires some skill/practice and the Stabilizer Muscles need to be strong enough to stabilize you.

With that in mind, let look at the most effective method of training Stabilizer Muscles in a movement.

Tudor Bompa On Stability Training and Devices

Tudor Bompa (a renowned sports scientist) literally wrote the book on Periodization Training

In a presentation at a national strength clinic, years ago, stability devices and exercise were the rage: BOSU Balls, Wobble Boards, etc.

When ask about Stability Training for sports and movement, Bompa replied...

"If you play on a wobble field, train on a wobble board"

Bompa went on to explain the best stability training for a sport and movement was the sport or movement itself.

The Women's Balance Beam in Gymnastics

As an example, Bompa noted that the most effective method of developing the Stabilizer Muscles for balance for the Balance Beam in Women's Gymnastics was Balance Beam Training.

BOSU Balls, Wobble Board, etc had virtually no carryover to the Balance Beam event.

With that said, Pistol Squat make you good at performing Pistol Squat but have very little carry over to Barbell Squats.



The Pistol Squat Math Equation

Implementing a unilateral movement definitely allows you to increase strength in the weaker limb, in a well written and performed program.

However, while the math you provide makes some sense, the reality is that it doesn't add up in real life.

If you were to preform only Pistol Squats with the loads you noted, it would not be "the equivalent of 200kg for two legs".

Pistol Squat Training

While there is some value to Pistol Squat, it is lower on the list of Strength and Hypertrophy Training Exercises.

The following article by Charley Gould goes into some of the information that I have stated.

Gould also provides some information "The One Legged Squat", a "Better Alternative"; also know as...

The Step Up

This is one of the exercises that that I have posted information, for years, as a great method of increasing Leg Strength in the Squat.

One of the caveats of The Step Up that I recommend is to perform them while holding on to something like a Power Rack. Doing so provides greater stability; placing more of the work on the primary muscles.

Tip: Pistol Squats Are Dumb | T Nation

Here's what to do instead.

www.t-nation.com

Obviously, this is a poor title for the article.

I doubt the it was Charley's original title.

When writing for T-Nation, one of the agreement you sign off/agree to is allowing them to change the title and/or information in the article, if they decide to do so.

An example is...

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts?

Heavy kettlebell swings could be the best damn posterior chain exercise you're not doing, possibly even better than deadlifts! Here's why.

www.t-nation.com

This is a great article with a bad title.

At an annual NSCA'S National Strength and Conditioning Seminar, Dr Bret Contreras stated that was not his title for the article.

Contreras stated that T-Nation change the title and indicated that he wasn't pleased with what they changed it to.

Hey Kenny, some real interesting thoughts, im not sure what point your making at times, from what you have said it reads to me like the pistol with halve the load would equate to more tham double the load with a back squat because of the increased stabliser muscles demands rather than less?

Some great articles you listed though on related topics especially on the drawbacks of pistols with lower back rounding and how one leg squats on an elevation are safer/better (something Pavel mentions as 'Paul Anderson squats in NW) got me thinking, thanks!

 

[adefit]

Hey adefit, not sure what you mean here?!

asking if you're saying that just bodyweight would be more beneficial? also what's your thoughts on just using rings?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

the pistol with halve the load would equate to more tham double the load with a back squat because of the increased stabliser muscles demands rather than less?

Increasing The Load

A Unilateral Movement like the Pistol Squat or Step Up increasing the load to some degree as you stated.

However, the reality is that if you only perform Pistol Squats without performing any heavy Bilateral Squats you are not going to be able to let's say Squat 200 kg.

Unstable Unilateral Movements place a higher demand on the Stabilizer Muscles with a much lesser demand on the Primary Muscles.

Minimizing or Eliminating The Stabilizer Muscles

Minimizing the Stabilizer Muscle in a Step Up by holding on to the Rack allows you to us more weight than in a Step Up without holding on to the Rack.

Performing a Smith Bench Press or Squat, allows you to move more weight because you are eliminating the Stabilizer Muscles.

Machines like the Leg Press allow you to move more weight for the same reason. Plus, Leg Pressing at an angle decreases the load around 30%.

With that said, if your could Squat 200 kg that would mean the Leg Press would need to be loaded to around 265 kg to equate to the Squat load. You are going to be able to push substantially more with than 265 kg with the Leg Press.

If you only performed the Leg Press with 265 kg plus, that doesn't equate to a 200 kg Squat; that because the Stabilizer Muscle are not going to be strong enough.

Stabilizer Muscles need to be trained and strengthened enough so they can lock your position in, allowing maximum force output in the Primary Muscles.

Leakage

Core Strength (the Stabilizer Muscles) are vital in a Squat.

As Dr Stuart McGill stated, a weak core (Stabilizer Muscles) cause Leakage.

A strong core locks your position in. That is why lifter talk about Staying Tight.

A weak core (Stabilizer Muscle) allows the core to move around with the bar on your back, creating a leakage of power.

Dr Fred Hatfield Leakage Analogy

Hatfield's reference to leakage in a Squat (any movement) is...

"You can't shoot a cannon from a canoe."

 

[pet']

Hello,

IMHO, both pistol and regular weighted squat have their place, but they may target different things.

Of course, if maximal output is the goal, regular squat will be mandatory.

Nonetheless, if you need some stability, as it is the case for trail running for instance, then performing pistol may be interesting as well: hip mobility, overall stability, let say strength gain (but modest comparing to regular squat). This is at least my experience.

So performing a squat program for strength gains, and simultaneously performing a few pistols as part of a mobility / stability program may give some kind of optimal result.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

if you need some stability, as it is the case for trail running for instance, then performing pistol may be interesting as well:

"If you play on a wobble field, train on a wobble board".

As Tudor Bompa stated, the most effective stability for a sport is the sport.

That means stability for training running is best trained and developed from trail running.

Pistol Squat other type of stability training aren't going to enhance trail running stability.

Women's Gymnastic Balance Beam

As Bompa stated, stability training on devices like a BOSU Ball, Wobble Board, etc do nothing for a increasing a woman balance on a Gymnastic Balance Beam.

let say strength gain (but modest comparing to regular squat).

Strength Gains

The strength gains in Barbell Squats is dramatically greater.

Some strength in Pistol Squat is gain but not enough to carryover to Barbell Squats.

So performing a squat program for strength gains, and simultaneously performing a few pistols as part of a mobility / stability program may give some kind of optimal result.

Much Better Exercises

Pistol Squat are at the bottom of Auxiliary Exercises for Barbell Squat Training.

Banded Barbell Squat Training

One of the most effective Auxiliary Barbell Squat Exercises is Banded Squats (Accommodating Resistance Training).

Bands ensure more involvement of the Stabilizer Muscles in a Barbell Squat than just plain Free Weight Squats.

Something Is Better Than Nothing

If someone enjoys Pistol Squats, then do 'em.

They provide some benefit but not as much as many believe.

 

[Maine-ah KB]

What about with a weighted OAPU and Pullup? One arm pullups seem to be towards the edge of strength limits for all but the skinniest rockclimbers but ive not seen many talk about weighted OAPUs and how much weight they could add yet it seems a legit move to do as a BP calisthenic substitute and Pavel emntions it as an option for increasing difficulty in NW.

As far as weighted OAPU go Its not my favorite option. one its a royal pain to get the weight settled on the right portion of your body (unless your using a weighted vest). two there are a ton of great variations that work with a change in leverage, feet elevated OAPU, OAOL PU, one arm dive-bombers are shockingly hard. I think that as far as weighted calisthenics go Dips, Pull-ups, Pistols and standard pushups are can provide a Big Bang for your buck as far as potential strength, hypertophy or power goals go. (there also all easy to load with resistance bands if your stuck at home with limited weights)

 

[pet']

Hello,

As Tudor Bompa stated, the most effective stability for a sport is the sport.

That means stability for training running is best trained and developed from trail running.

I agree that statement.

Pistol Squat other type of stability training aren't going to enhance trail running stability.

Nontheless, I disagree this one.

Runner Kellyn Taylor's pistol squats leg workout

Kellyn Taylor -- who's also a firefighter-in-training and a mom -- does this move for "fun" to help build stability and strength in her legs. She also likes to watch others try it.

www.espn.com

Strength Training for Runners: Pistol Squats

This isolated leg exercise can help build strength, flexibility, balance and coordination.

www.podiumrunner.com

Trail Running Training in the Gym: How to Get Faster on the Trails - Strength Running

Tweet Moving the majority of your training to the trails is one of the best decisions you can make. If you run on the roads every day and rarely venture into the trails, you may be missing out on one of the best injury prevention tools that’s available. And the55

strengthrunning.com

The strength gains in Barbell Squats is dramatically greater.

Some strength in Pistol Squat is gain but not enough to carryover to Barbell Squats.

My statement was mainly regarding running activities.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[DaveS]

asking if you're saying that just bodyweight would be more beneficial? also what's your thoughts on just using rings?

Depends on the goal, for strength with calisthenics then weighted or progressions towards one arm pullups will work better than just bodyweight for higher reps but if your goal is hypertrophy then perhaps higher reps without weight or less weight will work better. Rings are good in my humble opinion, they keep you'honest' as any kipping will show with you starting to swing and they are a great option for protecting the joints which is a potential downfall of pullups for many people. My original thread here was more a curious open question to the forum on their thoughts about what the limits of weighted calisthenics would be for the elite and how the strength demands might compare to powerlifters etc. For help with your own training im happy to help but there are many more people more qualified in strongfirst methods on here than myself so perhaps post up a seperate question on the forum with details of yourself, goals and current routine?, hope that helps. D

 

[DaveS]

As far as weighted OAPU go Its not my favorite option. one its a royal pain to get the weight settled on the right portion of your body (unless your using a weighted vest). two there are a ton of great variations that work with a change in leverage, feet elevated OAPU, OAOL PU, one arm dive-bombers are shockingly hard. I think that as far as weighted calisthenics go Dips, Pull-ups, Pistols and standard pushups are can provide a Big Bang for your buck as far as potential strength, hypertophy or power goals go. (there also all easy to load with resistance bands if your stuck at home with limited weights)

Maine-ah, personally ive yet to try OAPUs with weight added yet despite my liking the idea, i was thinking though that of course there is an arm free to hold the weight in place if needed so if using a KB as the weight then perhaps the handle pointing towards the feet would allow the free hand to rest on the handle to hold it steady? Ill have to give it a go soon see if i get the same problems as yourself. OAOLPUs is a good progression, and elevated be real difficult but then you lose the 'do it anywhere' if needing a specific elevation, i like the idea of adding isometric pauses as pavel suggests in NW and getting to the point of being able to do multiple stops both up and down for reps would require some high level strength!

 

[Starlord]

I think there is a lot of good points already covered by other members of the forum. A lot of points to think about.

I think ultimately this needs to be an actual experiment that you conduct yourself. Build up your weighted calisthenic movements until the quarantine is over.

Then when the gyms are open go to the gyms and become proficient in the powerlifting competition lifts and once you are proficient test your 1RM under powerlifting conditions.

Report back with your findings.

I would be very interested to seeing the real world transfer.

 

[Kozushi]

I badly hurt my right shoulder attempting a one arm chinup 3 years ago which messed up my training for a long time - still trained but had to give up on overhead movements.
An important quote which is I think from Pavel Macek is "The movement is not the muscle" or something like this, which had a big effect on how I think about exercise movements. Thus you can find guys who are terrifically strong, deadlifting and benchpressing in the 600+lbs range who will think the TGU at 40kg is an accomplishment beyond their dreams - which it isn't of course, but the different movement patterns pose a new challenge to surmount regardless of the much lighter weight involved than what they can handle.
I don't think there is any question that there is skill and strength transfer from one movement to another. Some like to call this the "what the heck effect" but to me calling it transferable strength makes more sense and seems to me a perfectly fair way to see it. For instance, pistol squat progressions and one arm pushups helped my S&S training, and vice versa. Kettlebell swings helped me start to deadlift. Everything helps judo and judo in turn seems to keep me at some level of weight training strength.
You strike me as being much stronger than myself, but in terms of hitting some kind of plateaus, I love it when I get there, since it means I've done my job and gotten about as strong as I can without getting too serious about it.