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Programming Improv Thoughts on how I overtrained my lower back

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Adachi

Level 7 Valued Member
MY HISTORY
I'm still young in training and ignorant of many ideas in physical training. I know about some kettlebell movements from trying it and using breadcrumbs left by SFGs who left behind a decentralized encyclopedic library of tutorial content. I used S&S to achieve a base of strength, I dipped my toes into power to the people to increase my strength base. I used Q&D many times to at least maintain my situation during some tough times.

For context, I have been training for a few years. My High-Water-Marks of strength are currently...
  • Deadlift 365lbs
  • KB strict press 40kg 2R, 1L
  • Snatch 32KG ~5RM
  • Swing 10x10 - 40KG
  • TGU 32KG 5L, 5R
My Cycles, since achieving Timeless Simple have generally alternated between Q&D snatching and strength routines like a Press + FrontSquat, or Deadlift & Press; like in Power to the People. Early on, with only kettlebells, I started out by racking my 32+24kg bells for 3x3 and worked my way up to 5x5. And, I worked up from pressing the 24kg for 5x5, and the 32kg for singles, to pressing the 32kg for 5x5. And, when I got my barbell, I started deadlifting, and I had a mild experience with Zercher squats(1 cycle). My Kettlebell strength training was all done in grease-the-groove fashion, and now that I think of it, I should probably take a moment to acknowledge a lesson I learned: There is no such thing as too much rest.

I've turned back to Q&D several times. And, so far, each time I get stronger off of a strength cycle I find that my Q&D sessions improve in strange ways. the sets become more difficult, the inter-set recovery can feel less complete, but the inter-series recovery feels more complete.

I recently had a form change that spiked the intensity of my snatches and points to the Sumo Deadlift. I may experience some profitable Training there.
My form change was widening my stance with toes pointing 45degrees off center, and putting the inside of my heels outside of the outer edge of my shoulders by more than a couple inches, and my legs are between 30-45 degrees off vertical

this has yielded powerful concentric portions of the snatch, to the point where I shaved off about a second from an all-out set of 10, from 20 to 19 seconds, and also was inducing a pump in the forearms and bicep that I had not previously experienced. and my timing off at the top had unintentional forearm strikes.

I suppose this may suggest that right now I have some glute dominance going on, and maybe a particular portion of the quads that I can tap for additional force. but I digress.

THE OVERTRAINING PROCESS
for about 5 weeks from May to June this year, I attempted to adopt a Two-a-Day schedule that I believed would help me get more with less training time, ala strength shortcuts.

I had planned for this cycle to last for 9 weeks, but I had to pull the plug early.

The plan:
snatch during my lunch hour (40-60 reps) and do some deadlifting and presses at home; 10 reps or less.
I was seeking a max strength increase in parallel with a conditioning effect. (really I should have just been doing Iron Cardio)

THE PROGRAM WAS TOO MUCH​
5x / week
AM
Snatch 2 or 3 series Q&D
24kg
PM
Deadlift @75% ≤ 10 reps
Press
32kg ≤ 5x5
- OR -
40kg 3-5 Singles

There were some things I was mixing together here that maybe I ought not to have.
  • PttP style near-daily training, and 5,3,2 sets.
  • Daily dose deadlift Flat 75% loading.
  • Aggressive pressing loading
  • 5 days/week of Q&D loading, (higher than advised, albeit "low volume").
The intensity for the deadlift was out of the Daily Dose Deadlift program, which worked for me in the past (at the Prescribed volumes, at the time, not the doubled volumes of this cycle)
keeping the intensity relatively flat at 75% and doubling the volume to be more like PttP while also snatching and pressing the way I was, seems to have turned out to be a mistake.
The 40KG press was intense for me at the time, and I think I shouldn't have scheduled it this way. looking back at my training log, I can easily get away with pressing like that 3 days per week if that's all I'm working on. However, the combination was too much.
And after experiencing this failed cycle, I can't imagine doing Q&D 5 days/week on its own. it taps my systems more deeply than I'd previously thought it would.

MY LOWER BACK
I pulled the plug on this cycle as my lower back turned south.
My Press kept getting stronger for my shoulders.
My deadlift kept getting stronger for my hips and grip.
My snatch kept getting faster and more powerful with good pop and float.
But my 1 arm swing wouldn't pop and float like before.

And, my lower back kept getting worse and worse.
I decided to turn back to S&S, and I have done 10x10 with 40kg. but I was surprised that it wasn't there.
I moved into some low-volume maintenance work.
I got down to some 16kg bell work with swings and getups.

That was around the time when I found the Big 3 from Stuart McGill. I posted about how the side plank when I have my left palm on the ground and I'm sinking my shoulder into my torso. The Leftward tension is what's helping things get back into balance. I do have the Sore Joint Solution, and I like it. But, for this problem, I think the Big 3 is more acutely applicable.

THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK
A Point of interest for me was the counterintuitive moments of discovering that something was more deeply wrong than I thought.
I was pressing the 32kg bell for sets of 10. And, one of those sets left me with a certain amount of discomfort. I don't remember exactly when, but I remember it the same way I remember rolling my ankle very slightly. walking it off, and being able to get back to it. but, for my lower back, it was downhill from there. And, in the ensuing weeks, I found dwindling capacity in all my lifts, and I pursued lower-intensity training; which descended to my original 16kg bell, which I never thought I'd touch again.

IT'S BEEN A WHILE
My lower back is still recovering and it is still very different from the way I remember it a year ago. I'm coming up on 3 months that have passed since this overtraining happened, and the actual finish line is not currently in view.

PERSISTENCE IS THE IMMORTAL VIRTUE
I love Strength Shortcuts 2.0. it is a premier document that I look to for insight. I think I had a "more-is-just-more" problem. my ideas about how much load I could recover from, and what I was requiring of my lower back were too big. I wasn't recovering, and I didn't know the hole I was digging for myself. Also, I count myself lucky that I didn't exactly have to stop training altogether. I kept lightening the load while I surveyed my options.

I EAT CROW
One thing I wasn't abiding by in Strength Shortcuts was using FABs.
Functional Antagonistic Balance was absolutely not a part of my program.
I'll look to use that design aspect if there is a next time.

I oft say: defer to the program. Geoff didn't tell me what to do. Pavel didn't beat down my door. I solicited advice. And, being my own coach has been a mistake that manifested in my back pain. I proved that putting things together wrong would lead me to an injury that would have been easily avoided. So easily, in fact, that if I had adhered more closely to Strength Shortcuts I would not have programmed loading the spine 3x and unloading it 0x in my plan.

There are a few aspects of Strong Endurance Programming that I've been able to express in my own training with greater fidelity. For now, I'll rely on those areas where I've displayed more success. And, such as it is - my knowledge of SE actually came from a presentation, with questions, answers, instructions, examples, and explanations by its authors to equip me to be able to navigate this area of programming. There is a different dynamic there. and it augments my efforts to balance my GPP interests with the time I reserve for training.

I'm just kind of rambling at this point...
I hope this is useful to others.

Maybe the moral of the story is, as brett says, to trust the process, and enjoy the results. I've already been successful in alternating my barbell and kettlebell practice. mixing them (especially like this ) was like trying to have my cake and eat it too. I got greedy and thought I was outsmarting something when it turned out I was too smart by half. In the end, I departed from what I already knew worked because I wanted more. That was a mistake.

There's a way in which I departed from these principles; albeit unintentionally.
  • Continuity of training
    • my alternation of lifting heavy and lifting fast didn't need to be combined.
  • Waviness in the load
    • I was just loading up too much, altogether.
  • Treat it as a Practice (I'll add: "... with patience")
    • I wasn't really just practicing, I was pushing
 
A thing I noticed about your post is the of warms up? Maybe you just skipped and didn't mention it but I've been there.

E.G. I arrive home with one hour lunch time, I want to throw a 30 mins of C&P but If I add 10 mins of warm up then I have 20 mins left to eat, wash up and get back to work...almost impossible, so I end up doing the program without warming up, at the beginning it may work but eventually one day you end up screwing something.

For some 10 mins of warm ups is not enough, for some others is too much, I don't know...

Furthermore lower back pain may have many triggers, one of them are feet/imbalance, are you training barefoot? if not are you using the correct shoes? perhaps you will feel less stress by using some kind of lifting shoes?

No matter what anyway you should get to the doctor, get an MRI done and check what is the status of your back, once cleared what is the problem choose what is more convenient together with a sport physical therapists, there are many good programs out there but all of them are for general population, they may work or not, but its not a personalized program for you, your body and perhaps your deficiencies. Id suggest this, then look back at the programs available and pick up the ones that suits your needs better.
 
Without doubt.
So what's the plan for the next steps?
So - I've been continuing on with Stu McGill's Big 3.
And I've added some planks, and I've started to add the sit-back.

I did purchase the Sore Joint Solution. and, I do enjoy it. it would seem that the side plank in the Big 3 is having a larger effect for now. although I do intend to adopt the SJS as a regular practice. next is deciding on a barbell cycle. I'm weighing a couple of schedules and thinking about what fits best.

Mostly I'm comparing ways to program PttP versus Reload. I'm looking through Strong Endurance and thinking of programming it for myself, but maybe I should put that away given the tenor of this thread.
I just have a certain amount of time in a day and this training is actually not first on the list of things to do on any given day.
 
My first thought reading your post was that it seemed a lot to be doing all at once.
I had set myself a target this year regarding borh the press and the jerk. Recently I've reevaluated my progress and will focus on the press, albeit either military or C&P. I've dropped the jerk and LCCJ until I can make some progress on my press.
I'm impressed with your snatching and perhaps I am now missing the power element but I do intend to pepper in some swings as well as cleans.
Current 8 week block plans are;
1) Easy Muscle Schedule A BB C&P
2) Victorious I KB MP + PTTP BB DL
3) ROP KB C&P (+...)
4) Reload BB DL and BB MP
 
A thing I noticed about your post is the of warms up? Maybe you just skipped and didn't mention it but I've been there.

E.G. I arrive home with one hour lunch time, I want to throw a 30 mins of C&P but If I add 10 mins of warm up then I have 20 mins left to eat, wash up and get back to work...almost impossible, so I end up doing the program without warming up, at the beginning it may work but eventually one day you end up screwing something.

For some 10 mins of warm ups is not enough, for some others is too much, I don't know...

Furthermore lower back pain may have many triggers, one of them are feet/imbalance, are you training barefoot? if not are you using the correct shoes? perhaps you will feel less stress by using some kind of lifting shoes?

No matter what anyway you should get to the doctor, get an MRI done and check what is the status of your back, once cleared what is the problem choose what is more convenient together with a sport physical therapists, there are many good programs out there but all of them are for general population, they may work or not, but its not a personalized program for you, your body and perhaps your deficiencies. Id suggest this, then look back at the programs available and pick up the ones that suits your needs better.
I haven't warmed up with stretches and general preparation for many moons. last time i tried a bit of warm up i did about 50 jumping jacks, and my Deadlift felt faster. but that was it. For most of these movements i don't have any proprioception that tells me of any kind of benefit so I leave it out for time's sake.

I try to fit some overall mobility movements in when I can. I do some big twists and some frog poses on my bed when I get up and go to sleep. a few moves from flexible steel have been helpful. I have missed hanging from a pull-up bar and - admittedly I got into an argument with the missus about hanging a pull-up bar in the house - she was angry with me for damaging more than one door's molding at our old house before, and she doesn't want that here. so, whatever - I haven't set aside some spare cash for a new pull-up bar which I would intend to be mounted in the garage. but things cost what they cost. and I'll have to figure that out.

I remember one time when I alternated sessions of swings and getups without the warmup and with them. and I just couldn't sense one difference in any of the reps or sets.

I don't really know exactly what causes my back pain but I do know what relieves it from time to time. I did have a good relationship with a previous chiropractor on the west coast, and some stretches helped. But, I am guessing that I am still on the correct track with the McGill Big 3. I have a sneaking suspicion that direct training strength in the mid-section will continue to improve my situation.

at my lunch hour, I usually train in my work shoes, which I guess I could replace with something.
when I train at home I'm usually in socks or barefoot on some thin foam tiles.
If one of my legs is longer than the other or something... I'd have to have a really close look. I've not noticed that myself.
 
My first thought reading your post was that it seemed a lot to be doing all at once.
I had set myself a target this year regarding borh the press and the jerk. Recently I've reevaluated my progress and will focus on the press, albeit either military or C&P. I've dropped the jerk and LCCJ until I can make some progress on my press.
I'm impressed with your snatching and perhaps I am now missing the power element but I do intend to pepper in some swings as well as cleans.
Current 8 week block plans are;
1) Easy Muscle Schedule A BB C&P
2) Victorious I KB MP + PTTP BB DL
3) ROP KB C&P (+...)
4) Reload BB DL and BB MP
yeah, it was just too much.
it was surprising to me how much more loading on the lower back the Pressing I was doing was.
the deadlift and snatch it was more expected. but the press is very demanding on the midsection during stabilization work during the press.
Looking forward - I'm just going to have one plan at a time.
 
I remember one time when I alternated sessions of swings and getups without the warmup and with them. and I just couldn't sense one difference in any of the reps or sets.

Even if you don't notice the effects of the warming up on your results it does not mean that they ain't doing nothing!! A Good program starts with a good warming up, even S&S do have its warming up with the halos / bridges / Globet prying squat.

Another thing..McGill do state the following on its "Low back disorder" book.
Captura de Pantalla 2022-10-23 a la(s) 18.20.16.png
Consider addressing your problems with a doctor before applying "solutions" by trial and error, I did that too in the past and I was completely wrong.
 
For some 10 mins of warm ups is not enough, for some others is too much, I don't know...

Furthermore lower back pain may have many triggers
This.

To the OP,
There are many ways to go w. low back pain - I hope you get things figured out. With kettlebells, I will say that it was only after quite a while of training (like years) that I really dialed in technique to the point that lower back was not ever much of a consideration
 
This is terrible to say, but I almost think it is a natural part of training progression to get injured. At least for an early intermediate trainee. 1 side of the spectrum is not exercising and out of shape or even undertraining. The other side is overtraining and injuring oneself. I can imagine a newer intermediate level trainee testing the waters on the overtraining side as part of the learning process. The Newby does this too, of course, but they don't use enough weight to really injure themself. Be happy, this is part of the learning process and you will grow from it. Of course go see a doc. In case this is more than an excersise related injury.

I've had my share of back problems and I am flexion intolerant. Very much so. I've learned to manage it. I highly recommend Stu McGill and Brian Carroll's work. I highly recommend taking the assessment in his book, Back Mechanic. I highly recommend reviewing Brian's youtube channel and even contacting him via Instagram or phone/email (I can pass it to you if interested just PM me).

My general thoughts:
- Stop training if you are experiencing pain. Any pain at all. Just STOP.
- Take the Back Mechanic assessment to determine a path forward.
- Learn your pain triggers. Practice perfect spinal hygene in your daily life. Create a pain free life and don't "pick the scab".
- Do daily walking (don't walk slow)
- After you are pain free, introduce the McGill Big 3. Find Brian Carroll's youtube channel for detailed instruction. If you haven't watched his videos then you probably are not doing them right.
- Slowly start incorporating CORE excersises. Stir the pots, loaded carries, and bottoms up KB presses and carries should be your best friend.
- Eventually introduce GRINDS back into your routine. Squats, presses, hinges, and pulls. Don't go overboard with Intensity or Volume. For me, I started doing barbell squats (just the bar) to a high box. Over time lowered the box to parallel. Slowly added weight. Once I accomplished a 135lb squat for reps, I removed the box and Slowly started linear periodization all over again.
- Assuming you are flexion intolerant (most people are, but the assessment should determine this....), no BALLISTICS for a long while.

Good luck. Don't let this wear you down. This isn't a death sentence. I came back WAY STRONGER. But I am very different and my lumbar will never be the same. My back isn't worse nor is it better, it is just different. I've lost lumbar flexibility, mobility, and endurance (let's call it bending endurance, ha ha). I've gained stability, strength, hip mobility, and knowledge/wisdom. You will likely have a similar story or experience. I hope yours is easier than mine.

Regards,

Eric
 
I appreciate the advice to see a doctor @Eyetic . It's just good advice. I had seen my doctor in the past , before I moved, and I was referred to chiropractor as a result (in Los Angeles at least) . on the east coast I haven't really found that kind of relationship again since moving this year and I should. Things are getting better over time.

The Ultimate time scale for this problem with my lower left back, I believe started the better part of a decade ago when I was carrying my kid around for hours at night. I think that had a lot to do with it. Prior to that I had worn sousaphones on my left shoulder a lot with no corrective training for years growing up in highschool, and playing in bands since. and so for example, my left trap is definitely bigger and stronger than my right.

That said I couldn't help but notice the effect that high rep presses seemed to add to my lower back during that time and I'm spending a lot of my training now doing low intensity work with it and around it. And the way my 1 arm swing uniquely wouldn't come up to shoulder level, while I could clean and press the same bell and I could 2 arm swing it to shoulder height without an issue. And I could feel the localized strain in the lower left back muscles.
 
@Adachi I suggest filming yourself (preferably shirt off) from multiple angles, and watch it in slow motion, watch some reps frame by frame. Compare left arm movements to right arm movements and look for differences. For instance, I have been dealing with left shoulder and neck tightness from pressing for a few years. Watching myself press, it was quite clear that my shoulder was moving a lot differently on the left side compared to the right. As I’ve started to find ways to get movement I need, things have been improving.

Im of the thinking that asymmetries are completely normal, and they only really need to be addressed when there’s an issue.

The article I posted (for anyone who has not read it) addresses how long term asymmetrical loading (essentially) can lead to altered movement patterns, and how the low back, being near our center of gravity, can take the brunt of the results.

Without seeing someone who will actually analyze your movements (a good PT for instance) you might be spinning your wheels a bit trying to find lasting relief for yourself.

Hope you find something that helps.
 
@Adachi I suggest filming yourself (preferably shirt off) from multiple angles, and watch it in slow motion, watch some reps frame by frame.
I used to film myself very regularly. and it was particularly useful in comparing my videos to the example videos on the barbell basics class here at strong first. i used that to try and learn the dead lift and the zercher and I think it helped a lot .

since the move, this year it's only been a few times that I filmed myself. I'll have to get back to that. one of the things I intend to do about that is getting used to using a separate timing device. I've used my phone, but these phone app timers that I use to time Q&D sessions for example haven't seemed to continue working in the background.

i really should film more. i can't count the number of times my proprioception didn't match the video or vice versa.
 
i can't count the number of times my proprioception didn't match the video or vice versa.
Same here. The interesting thing I find is that the "correct" position(s) will often feel weird or out of balance or something at first.
 
Perhaps this is a sign that you should probably consult an SFG for some programming??
I have had very good luck with SE Templates 1-4 but I could probably get very good advice from an SFG on some of the finer details of Planning varied volumes, and frequencies, relative to my GPP disposition.
 
I appreciate the advice to see a doctor @Eyetic . It's just good advice. I had seen my doctor in the past , before I moved, and I was referred to chiropractor as a result (in Los Angeles at least) . on the east coast I haven't really found that kind of relationship again since moving this year and I should. Things are getting better over time.
My mistake...chiropractors in spain are not legal...when I first had this low back pain I was addressed to a physiotherapist / phisical therapist, anyway if you have a muscle / tendon imbalance a chiropractor is focused on the spinal manipulation and mobilization, I'm not against but I think they can treat only some kind of issues.

Imagine that my low back problem started due to a extremely short achilles tendon on my left leg, which ended up pulling down all the muscles on the rear part of the leg up to the tendons / muscles located in my lower back, this imbalance made the "floating" vertebraes L5-S1 to twist and bend down to one side..ending up in a disc bulging .

By addressing over time streches, changing footwear, and doing some specific excersices I've managed to kind of solve my problem...maybe my explanation is not 100% scientifically correct but you get the idea how difficult is to find the problem, and the proccess involved X-rays, MRI and a few physical examinations.
 
I appreciate the advice to see a doctor @Eyetic . It's just good advice. I had seen my doctor in the past , before I moved, and I was referred to chiropractor as a result (in Los Angeles at least) . on the east coast I haven't really found that kind of relationship again since moving this year and I should. Things are getting better over time.

The Ultimate time scale for this problem with my lower left back, I believe started the better part of a decade ago when I was carrying my kid around for hours at night. I think that had a lot to do with it. Prior to that I had worn sousaphones on my left shoulder a lot with no corrective training for years growing up in highschool, and playing in bands since. and so for example, my left trap is definitely bigger and stronger than my right.

That said I couldn't help but notice the effect that high rep presses seemed to add to my lower back during that time and I'm spending a lot of my training now doing low intensity work with it and around it. And the way my 1 arm swing uniquely wouldn't come up to shoulder level, while I could clean and press the same bell and I could 2 arm swing it to shoulder height without an issue. And I could feel the localized strain in the lower left back muscles.
I have to really tense my abs hard while pressing overhead. If there is any slack in my abdomen, I can immediately feel it in my lower back.
 
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