Kettlebell Time to complete s and s

[PackMan]

I have heard that there is some shoulder rehabilitation done with kettlebells.

Also, swinging and a few other movements with kettlebells is supposed to be awesome for the posterior chain, which I understand yours is not as strong as your front?

I'm just the noob, but maybe ask/pay your local SFG to talk to your doctor and come up with a plan?

That might be too far outside the box, I dunno...

I will certainly see if I can persuade him to let me to S & S. I really am not looking forward to a diet of bent over rows, triceps extensions and rear flyes.

Thing is, my tris are relatively strong, I think he is assuming that they are not. If/when he sees that they are strong, I hope he may relax his recommendations a little. Isolation moves? Hell!

I was also thinking on your Q as to how this situation has come about. As well as poor swing technique I think the real damage was done in my C & P days.

You know how you push out/back and up at the same time? Well, I think I wasn't pushing 'out' enough. The angle between the chest and humerus (if viewed from above) should be 180 degrees: a straight line.

I would estimate that my humerus-chest angle was about 135 degrees. I think this has led to the shoulders hunching a little.

Had an anti-inflamm right into the rotator cuff today, doesn't seem to have done much. I think he is a bit baffled as my issue should be sorted by now.

Man, I want to get (back) on S & S!! Grrrr!!!

 

[Lew]

, I hope he may relax his recommendations a little. Isolation moves? Hell!

@Karen Smith

If I read you right, you may want a more holistic approach.

Not isolation exercises, but a whole body approach.

Maybe kettlebells and/or isolation exercises aren't the answer you need right now.

I've dragged Karen into looking at this because I like the idea of bodyweight exercises and for most folks they are quite useful.

For me I'd have to be built like Arnold or Sylvester to move my bodyweight on my own!
(For the record, I'm not overweight, I'm UNDERtall. I should be like, 6'10" for my weight!)

I wish you well in healing. I can't imagine not being able to swing.

 

[Karen Smith]

- There are many things that can be done with KB and BW in a rehabilitation setting, however it will really depend on the skill level/knowledge of your PT. I have worked with several PT's in the rehab process of my students. I am working with two students currently that came to me after injuring their shoulders and many other in the past. I would need to know more from the PT about your particular injury before I would tell you what to do next.

Normally after a surgery you have to regain mobility and stability prior to thinking about strength. Again BW and KB are a great place to do all three of these but only under the right supervision.

If you do not have an instructor near by and would need someone to discuss your training with your PT, Let me know.

Also @Brett Jones might have some additional feedback for this thread.

 

[schurgerdc]

I'd like to get an idea of what most people feel like recovery is for them. This seems like most of the right group, as we are all currently in that 24 to 32 kg transition point (or really wanting to push it!!)

I've been doing S&S since June, strong since August with 24 kg for all swings & TGU's. I'm watching my performance with heart rate variability (which has been pretty spot on with morning assessments as to what I can/cannot/should not do), and even on my solid days for training, I'm not getting the rest time for the swings down to that 1-1 ratio, ~20-30 seconds. I tend to find it closer to 90 seconds, as I'm aiming for 120 bpm or less for myself. Another app I use (from Sweetbeat) has my HR down 37-45 beats within a minute of completing a set (this case, 3 double bell front squats), which apparently is good. Just trying to figure out how to move forward, as I'm 1-4+ on recovery for swings. TGU's are better at around 12 minutes in total.

 

[Lew]

I'd like to get an idea of what most people feel like recovery is for them. This seems like most of the right group, as we are all currently in that 24 to 32 kg transition point (or really wanting to push it!!)

I've been doing S&S since June, strong since August with 24 kg for all swings & TGU's. I'm watching my performance with heart rate variability (which has been pretty spot on with morning assessments as to what I can/cannot/should not do), and even on my solid days for training, I'm not getting the rest time for the swings down to that 1-1 ratio, ~20-30 seconds. I tend to find it closer to 90 seconds, as I'm aiming for 120 bpm or less for myself. Another app I use (from Sweetbeat) has my HR down 37-45 beats within a minute of completing a set (this case, 3 double bell front squats), which apparently is good. Just trying to figure out how to move forward, as I'm 1-4+ on recovery for swings. TGU's are better at around 12 minutes in total.

As a newbie I may have this wrong, but the HR/breath test is for the daily practice.

Then 'test' once every two weeks to see if you are 'simple' at your current weight.

Naturally getting down to the 1:1 ratio is another cue to test and then move up in weight if 100 swings done in 5:00 and 10 TGU done in 10:00.

It is not expected you will be at the Maffetone level or ~60% of HR during the test.

Can anyone confirm or correct my understanding of this?

 

[schurgerdc]

Actually, I just did my first 'test' yesterday, and even that shouldn't have been done, since I'm not up to 32kg. But what I'm really getting at, is how does one get to the 1:1 ratio for the swings? Is the key to it doing Maffetone's 60% HR (which I'm not completely sold on, b/c these 'x-age' things are not individually specific enough to my liking) or is there sometime else to it?

"Recovery" ultimately is how you come down from your set of swings for me at this point. I'm going to play with the Maffetone levels tomorrowl, and see how it goes.

 

[Anna C]

@schurgerdc, There are two types of "tests" that people talk about. One is the every two weeks, "Die but Do", non-stop swings. That is an important part of the program and will provide a different stimulus to your system than the daily 10 sets of swings. You will definitely not be aerobic during this effort -- your HR will be quite high, like with a 5-min snatch test. The other type of "test" is testing yourself every few weeks to see if you can do the 10 sets of 10 swings in 5 minutes and the 10 get-ups in 10 minutes. If this is do-able enough that you COULD do it any day, then you're ready to move up in weight. Can one be aerobic during this effort? Well, I suppose it's possible... I can probably stay aerobic while doing 10x10 swings w/ 12kg... But that's way below my ability, and I don't think it would be productive for me to stay with this weight, because I can do 10x10 swings w/ 24kg in 5 minutes, with the swings meeting the standards listed in the book. So the way I understand it, is let your daily practice be mostly aerobic, giving yourself enough recovery between sets of swings so that your HR spike after the set does not go over the MAF number (which could be adjusted for various factors), on MOST days. But sometimes, go harder. See if your swings can still be good and powerful with less recovery. It's OK for your HR go go higher on these days. You just don't want to do that every day, in your daily practice.

Your HR recovery sounds really good. Sounds to me like you're on the right track. So on your question, "Is the key to it doing Maffetone's 60% HR..", this is just my opinion, but no, I wouldn't say that's the KEY to getting to the 1:1 work/rest ratio. It's just the key to having a non-stressful daily practice that will allow you to develop your power, your technique, and your aerobic system, without burning yourself out. As these things get better, that will help you get to 1:1 ratio, but to actually perform there, you just have to push yourself harder sometimes, pick up that bell and do another set a lot quicker than you do on other days. It's a different feeling. It's hard work. But it's pretty awesome in it's own way.

 

[Lew]

Actually, I just did my first 'test' yesterday, and even that shouldn't have been done, since I'm not up to 32kg. But what I'm really getting at, is how does one get to the 1:1 ratio for the swings? Is the key to it doing Maffetone's 60% HR (which I'm not completely sold on, b/c these 'x-age' things are not individually specific enough to my liking) or is there sometime else to it?

"Recovery" ultimately is how you come down from your set of swings for me at this point. I'm going to play with the Maffetone levels tomorrowl, and see how it goes.

Point 6 of Simple and Sinister Summarized:
When you reach the 1: 1 work-to-rest ratio in one of the exercises— 100 total swings in five minutes; ten total get-ups in ten minutes— and can do this strongly almost any day, move up in weight in that exercise. Gradually replace your current training weight with a heavier weight, one set at a time. Go at your own pace; solidify what you have achieved before going further.
Tsatsouline, Pavel (2015-01-02). Kettlebell Simple & Sinister (Kindle Locations 1562-1565). . Kindle Edition.

Point 10
Every two weeks take a kettlebell one or more sizes lighter than the one you are currently swinging, and do as many swings as possible without setting the bell down. Pick any swing variation— two-arm, one-arm with multiple hand switches, hand-to-hand, mixed. Any rep that does not fulfill every one of the swing standards is a no-count. After a brief rest, do your usual get-ups. Do not introduce non-stop swings into your training until your normal training weight is 24kg if you are a woman and 32kg if you are a man.
Tsatsouline, Pavel (2015-01-02). Kettlebell Simple & Sinister (Kindle Locations 1575-1579). . Kindle Edition.

This thread might also contain some excellent information you can glean.
My S&S Swing and heartrate

From all that I've read, the bottom line is there is no, 'one size fits all' for just about anything.

I think this statement is going to be your key to hitting your goals...
I'm going to play with the Maffetone levels tomorrowl, and see how it goes.

I'm doing Simple and Sinister.
My goal is to see how close I can get to the program minimum and progress.

My advice is to keep doing it at your current level.
Don't be in a hurry.
You will know when you own the bell and you are ready to move up in weight, one set at a time.

Upon reflection, this post may not help.

But someone's criticism or correction of it may help you.

Good luck with that.

 

[Lew]

@schurgerdc, There are two types of "tests" that people talk about. One is the every two weeks, "Die but Do", non-stop swings. That is an important part of the program and will provide a different stimulus to your system than the daily 10 sets of swings. You will definitely not be aerobic during this effort -- your HR will be quite high, like with a 5-min snatch test. The other type of "test" is testing yourself every few weeks to see if you can do the 10 sets of 10 swings in 5 minutes and the 10 get-ups in 10 minutes. If this is do-able enough that you COULD do it any day, then you're ready to move up in weight. Can one be aerobic during this effort? Well, I suppose it's possible... I can probably stay aerobic while doing 10x10 swings w/ 12kg... But that's way below my ability, and I don't think it would be productive for me to stay with this weight, because I can do 10x10 swings w/ 24kg in 5 minutes, with the swings meeting the standards listed in the book. So the way I understand it, is let your daily practice be mostly aerobic, giving yourself enough recovery between sets of swings so that your HR spike after the set does not go over the MAF number (which could be adjusted for various factors), on MOST days. But sometimes, go harder. See if your swings can still be good and powerful with less recovery. It's OK for your HR go go higher on these days. You just don't want to do that every day, in your daily practice.

Your HR recovery sounds really good. Sounds to me like you're on the right track. So on your question, "Is the key to it doing Maffetone's 60% HR..", this is just my opinion, but no, I wouldn't say that's the KEY to getting to the 1:1 work/rest ratio. It's just the key to having a non-stressful daily practice that will allow you to develop your power, your technique, and your aerobic system, without burning yourself out. As these things get better, that will help you get to 1:1 ratio, but to actually perform there, you just have to push yourself harder sometimes, pick up that bell and do another set a lot quicker than you do on other days. It's a different feeling. It's hard work. But it's pretty awesome in it's own way.

Sorry Anna, you posted your post while I was typing mine.

Yours makes a lot more sense.

I cant wait until I get my SFG1 cert in 2017!

Thank you for your contributions!!

 

[Anna C]

Your input sounds exactly right, Lew! Thank you for YOUR contributions. I think that your advice and ability to express it is advanced, even if your practice is young. You seem to have found your calling, exercise-wise.