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Nutrition Timing of training with IF

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FWIW, I have always trained fasted, whether or not I am timing any other meals. When I was training for half marathons, the most I would eat before a run was a piece of toast with a nut butter, but under 8ish miles I just ran without taking in anything (and anytime I ate while running, even GU or anything simple, I would feel sick). That's extended into S&S for me as well, as I usually roll out of bed, spend a few minutes waking my brain and body, and then jump right into S&S. I usually do my workout around 6-630am and don't eat anything substantive until 9-930AM. Lately I've been drinking apple cider vinegar with water and a touch of honey after my workout, but that's more a function of when I have time to drink it vs any particular nutritional timing issue.

On the other hand, I know people who can't go for a jog around the block without having something in their stomachs first...everyone is different. I think I inadvertently trained myself to work out fasted out of sheer laziness. When I started running, I would have to get up 15-20 minutes early to eat toast; if I ran fasted, I could just wake up, change, and roll out the door. Ever since then I've preferred not eating before a workout.
 
Hello,

Exactly the same than @Questionfear
I used to do 15km three times a week, fasted. I admit I did not run super fast (10km/h). It was relatively easy pace.

Each time I tried to run after eating something, the first Kms were pretty tougher than in a fasted state. I felt almost puffy. I could only take advantage of my running after 3 or 4kms.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Hello,

An interesting section in this article, about "IF" and J. Wendler 5/3/1:
Dan John: Wandering Weights, Issue # 114 - On Target Publications
The following “rules” aren’t set in stone, and as long as you hit the macros and calories listed above for their respective days of the week, you’ll have success on this program. However, I’ve found that following these “rules” definitely makes the dieting phase more enjoyable, decreases hunger, and increases the quality of your training sessions.

1. Fast for 12 hours a day. This is from the last meal of the day until you eat your next meal the following day. If you eat your last bite at 9 p.m., don’t eat again until 9 a.m.
2. Start each day with coffee and a bit of coconut oil, even if it’s during your “fasting” period. This doesn’t break the fast in my opinion. And if it does in yours, that is fine,still do it. I’m not here to argue, I’m here to get you leaner.
3. Only eat protein and fat during the day. Eat the majority of your carbohydrates during the evening—6 p.m. and after. Keep carbohydrates under 20 grams during the day.
4. Track your calories and macros daily using an online program, phone app, or just old school pen and paper. You can also just plan out what each day looks like (high, medium, low) and know ahead of time what you’ll be eating each and every day.
5. I recommend drinking 10 to 15 grams of BCAAs before and during training, but this is optional.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Hello,

2. Start each day with coffee and a bit of coconut oil, even if it’s during your “fasting” period. This doesn’t break the fast in my opinion.
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Fasting mean NO food consumption.

Dan's definition of fasting does not meet with the technical definition of Fasting.

Coconut oil is a FOOD!

"This doesn't break the fast in my opinion" means Dan John is rewriting the definition of what the term FAST means, making it up as he goes.

Eat the majority of your carbohydrates during the evening—6 p.m. and after.
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There is nothing magical to consuming carbohydrates in the evening vs morning

Kenny Croxdale
 
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kennycro@@aol.com said:

Fasting mean NO food consumption.

Coconut oil is a FOOD!

"This doesn't break the fast in my opinion" means Dan John is rewriting the definition of what the term FAST means, making it up as he goes.



More idiotic "thoughts". There is nothing magical to consuming carbohydrates in the evening vs morning"

Kenny Croxdale
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Strictly defined, yes - eating any calories will break the fasted state. But lately the fasting literature is more focused on "maintaining a fat-burning state", or a relatively low-insulin environment. In that sense, consuming fat keeps the fat-burning state going (body doesn't differentiate between the two).
 
If one is consuming calories, it's not fasting anymore. It is called under eating. More info about this in Ori Hofmekler's book Warrior Diet.
 
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Sean M said:
Strictly defined, yes - eating any calories will break the fasted state. But lately the fasting literature is more focused on "maintaining a fat-burning state", or a relatively low-insulin environment. In that sense, consuming fat keeps the fat-burning state going (body doesn't differentiate between the two).
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Modifying Definitions

Sean, I have problem with those who MODIFY Definitions. In other word, rewrite Defined Term to suit their agenda.

Example

A guy once stated that he had not eaten any food in a year; which was true by His Definition.

However, he had consumed poison for a year.

He REDEFINED candy to be poison rather than food. Thus, had lived by ONLY consuming poison.

As Clint Eastwood once said, "Don't piss down my back and tell it raining"

Coconut oil falls into the category of food, the last time I heard.

The Body Doesn't Differentiate Between Fasting and Fat Consumpiton

Please list the specific scientific research data that on that. I'd love to review it.

"Food is the ultimate drug." Dr Barry Sears

The body in some form or fashion can differentiate in various ways when something ingested.

"Relatively low-insulin environment".

Yes, that is one of the benefits of the "Modified Ketogenic Diet"; high fat intake, low to moderate protein consumption and carbohydrates of 50 gram or less.

I've employed the Ketogenic Diet combined with Intermittent Fasting for over a year. I was diagnosed with a Metabolic Condition that is promoted by glucose (carbohydrate consumption).

Two methods that appear to attenuate this Metabolic Condition are The Ketogenic Diet and Intermittent Fasting.

To personally evaluate how it affected my blood glucose I began testing with a Glucometer.

I used a glucometer, prior to meals and after. As long as I followed the Ketogenic Guidelines, my blood glucose remained very low.

I also used Keto Test Strips to determine if I was in Ketosis.

One of the Ketogenic Guideline is that protein consumption must be in the low to moderate range. What I noted at time with the Keto Test Strips is that my protein levels were too high; kicking me out of ketosis.

Protein was being converted to glucose (Gluconeogenesis).

Fats can also be converted over to glucose (Gluconeogenesis). However, it is a much more difficult process for the body.

Take Home Point

1) "Eating any calories will break the fasted state."

2) Ketogenic Diets and Intermittent Fasting promote low blood glucose levels, low insulin production, elevated glucagon production.

As Jay Robb (Nutritionist) stated, "Insulin is a fat Maker. Glucagon is a Fat Taker."

3) The body in some form or fashion differentiate in various ways when something ingested.

My Perspective

I do well on the Ketogenic Diet and like it.

However, I do not recommend it for most individual. It is too demanding for most individual to maintain. The harder you make something the less likely individual are to maintain it.

I do recommend Intermittent Fasting.

1) The beauty is the simplicity of it, eat or don't eat. Nothing to prepare, no work involved.

2) Most individual have skipped a meal at time, performed unintended Intermittent Fasting.

3) "Metabolic Flexibility": The body become flexible in it ability from fats to carbs and carbs to fat.

High Carbohydrates individual dependent on glucose; they tend to be inefficient at using body fat for energy.

Kegogenic Diet individuals are dependent on body fat/ketone for energy due to low glucose levels.

Intermittent Fasting individual selectively match the right energy source for the right activity.

Kenny Croxdale










 
@kennycro@@aol.com, I think most of us understood what Dan meant, and I don't think he's trying to rewrite or redefine anything, but rather saying that the little bit of food he's talking about is OK for him, for helping people achieve the stated goals by the stated means. I really do think most of us got that, and I don't think anyone is trying to redefine anything, certainly not Dan.

JMO.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
@kennycro@@aol.com, I think most of us understood what Dan meant, and I don't think he's trying to rewrite or redefine anything,
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Steve,

I realize you've met Dan John. I know you a fan of his, he's a nice guy, smart guy. So, you're swayed to defend his position based on your loyalty to him (admirable), rather than facts.

With that stated, "I don't think" equates to speculation {guessing), meaning you are not sure.

Thus, all we can go by is what they have stated, not what we "Think' someone meant.

Dan wrote, "Start each day with coffee and a bit of coconut oil, even if it’s during your “fasting” period. This doesn’t break the fast in my opinion."

The technical definition of "Fast" is "An abstinence from food". Coconut is considered a food.

Thus, suggesting being able to consume food during fasting is an oxymoronic statement, a contradictory term.

As per SeanM (post 27), "Strictly defined, yes - eating any calories will break the fasted state."

As per masa (post 28), "If one is consuming calories, it's not fasting anymore."

...but rather saying that the little bit of food he's talking about is OK for him, for helping people achieve the stated goals by the stated means.
Click to expand...

What does "Ok for him mean"?

"Insulin is a Fat Maker.,, Jay Robb

Research shows carbohydrates alone trigger the release of insulin.

Also, some amino acids will trigger the release of insulin. maca (post 24) noted that, "There was a study which showed that amino acids will break your fast."

Insulin shuts down, blocks body fat being burned.

Fat ensure a "Relatively low-insulin environment" as SeanM, post 27, correctly noted.

"Glucagon is a Fat Taker." Jay Robb

Glucagon (along with nor-epinephrine, epinephrine, growth hormone, and cortisol) are the counter hormones to insulin.

There is a "See-Saw" effect with Insulin and the Counter Hormones listed above.

Thus, a decrease in insulin means an increase in the "Fat Burning" Counter Hormones.

Fat Consumption and Fasting

Yes, fat consumption maintains a "Relatively low-insulin environment" as SeanM, post 27.

The lower you are able to maintain insulin levels and higher Counter Hormone levels, the more body fat that is utilized for energy, caloric expenditure.

SeanM. post 27, "...Consuming fat keeps the fat-burning state going (body doesn't differentiate between the two". "The two meaning Fat Consumption and Fasting.

While Fat Consumption alone and Fasting have similar effects, they are not defined as the same nor should they every be considered to be exactly the same.

[quote[I really do think most of us got that, and I don't think anyone is trying to redefine anything, certainly not Dan.[/quote]

Guessing what other think amount to assuming, guessing.

Stating that fat consumption equates to fasting equates to providing a new definition to the term, Fasting.

The Facts

To reiterate, a some similar effects is elicited with Fasting and only consuming fat.

However, defining them as being the same and evoking the same response is incorrect.

Take Home Point

1) "Eating any calories will break the fasted state."

2) Ketogenic Diets and Intermittent Fasting promote low blood glucose levels, low insulin production, elevated glucagon production.

As Jay Robb (Nutritionist) stated, "Insulin is a fat Maker. Glucagon is a Fat Taker."

3) The body in some form or fashion differentiate in various ways when something ingested or not ingested.

Practical Experience

As I noted in post 29, I have employed the Ketogenic Diet combined with Intermittent Fasting for close to a year and a half, due to a Metabolic Condition.

I have consumed only fats at times (Medium Chain Triglycerides and/or Coconut Oil). At other times, Fasting (no consumption of Medium Chain Triglycerides and/or Coconut Oil, no food.)

To reiterate, while they do provide a somewhat similar effect, they are not the same.

The Research

I have a plethora of research data on the Ketogenic Diet and Intermittent Fasting.

The research notes similarities but never has defined them as being the same.

Providing Correct Information

This isn't about who's wrong or right. It's about empowering individual with the correct information to know the differences and enable them to make optimal choices.

A Clear Definition in the meaning of a word or term allow us to all be be on the same page at the same time.

Kenny Croxdale
 
@kennycro@@aol.com, I don't know what else to say except that you're taking a lot of this very literally when I don't think it's intended that way.

I'll bow out of this thread here, thanks.

-S-
 
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