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Barbell Tips for programming to remove lower back rounding?

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thouqht

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I’m 30 y/o, 6’4” tall 230lb & somewhere in the upper teens in bodyfat percentage with long torso (if this informs your answers at all). I used to be into powerlifting but I stopped doing it because the way I was doing it was causing me lower back soreness.

I try my best to avoid rounding, but it seems like the rest of my body is consistently stronger than my back/abs which leads to me rounding somewhat with any kind of useful weight or intensity. I thought "I do ab work, must be that the exercises don't work for my body"

So to combat this discomfort (only genuine "pain" if I really pushed things), I basically cut all squats other than pistols or light goblets and took up deadlifting with the raised handles of the trap bar only.

The higher handles allowed me to really lock my upper back before pulling which seemed to help a bunch with the lower back. I told myself this was just “what I had to do” because of my height. However, as my poundage in the trap bar goes up (mid 400’s currently), the soreness is coming back with even very slight rounding.

I’m done trying to train around this – I don’t want a touchy lower back (or weak core), I want a massively strong one that is the last thing to give out. How would you recommend training if this is my MAIN objective?

I'm willing to dedicate as many cycles to this as necessary as all other training seems superfluous to me now that I've gotten real with myself about this. I appreciate the feedback - thanks.
 
Hi thought,
I used to have the same problem. What helped me the most are Original Strength resets (rocking, crawling,rolling...)
It took me a lot of time, consistency and patience are the keys...
Good luck
 
thouqht said:
I’m 30 y/o, 6’4” tall 230lb & somewhere in the upper teens in bodyfat percentage with long torso (if this informs your answers at all).
Click to expand...

Long Torso

Yes, the length of your torso makes a difference.

It is the bridge between your lower body and upper body.

The longer a bridge is the more support it needs between both ends.

The same applies individual with a long torso. As with a bridge, if not enough support is provided between one end and the other, the bridge or in this case, the lower back is going to bow/round.

thouqht said:
I try my best to avoid rounding, but it seems like the rest of my body is consistently stronger than my back/abs which leads to me rounding somewhat with any kind of useful weight or intensity.
Click to expand...

Trap Bar Deadlifts

The Trap Bar usually simulates more of a Squat than a Deadlift. However, 'Usually" means that isn't always the case.

Your Trap Bar Deadlifts weight and and specifically your "Soreness" with "Some slight rounding" indicates you engaging the more of your lower back.

EMG Study

One method of determining which muscles you are engaging in a movement is EMG Studies, used in Exercise Labs; it measure muscle activation. Few, if any of us have access to that.

With that said, a more common sense method that provide you with practical feedback is...

Vince Gironda's Method

Gironda was a great Bodybuilder and even greater Bodybuilding Coach.

As per Gironda, if you really want to gain first hand knowledge on which muscles are being worked and engaged in a exercise...

1) Select one exercise that you have not performed in a while.

2) Perform 10 Sets To Failure.

3) Then go home.

4) The next morning you will know which muscles you worked due to the soreness.

Your Low Back Soreness

The good new about your lower back soreness is that it is telling you that you are engaging you lower back; which as you/we know isn't a good thing.

Back Strength

You have a strong back; that based on the information you provided.

One of the issues is that you legs are weaker than your lower back.

That means once your leg strength is depleted, the body (a survival mechanism) automatically shifts the load to the stronger muscle group so that you are able to get the weight up (survive).

Basketball Analogy

In the final seconds of a game that you need to score one more basket to win, you give the ball to your best shooter. In your case, that means your back.

thouqht said:
I thought "I do ab work, must be that the exercises don't work for my body"
Click to expand...

Abdominal Strength

Increasing Abdominal Strength for long torso individual is vital.

Abdominal Strength provides additional support for the lower back. The bracing of the abs/isometric action, increases Intra Abdominal Pressure, IAP; increasing stability in the core and assisting the lower back.

That is one of the reason that Powerlifting Belts that are wide in the front work. They allow you to isometric push into the belt, increasing IAP and stabilizing the lower back.

"Core Leakage"

As Dr Stu McGill (Exercise Back Specialist) stated, a weak core leads to "Leakage". This is part of the reason that most lifter shift the weight/learn forward in a Squat or Deadlift.

"Staying Tight", bracing and and remaining rigid minimizes or eliminates "Leakage" of strength and power that is being transmitted from the lower body through the core to the upper body.

Learning forward, magnifies the true weight of the bar, torque.

Research by Dr Tom McLaughlin found that former World Powerlifting Champions, Jon Kuc's 870 lb Deadlift attempt equated to approximately double that, over 1700 lbs.

That because Kuc let the bar drift out too far away from his body's "Center of Gravity", COG.

thouqht said:
I’m done trying to train around this
Click to expand...

"If it ain't working, change something"

I understand your frustration.

It's not so much about "Trying to train around it" as much as determining the issue and then hard part of finding the solution.

That require some time and effort.

Summary

1) Strengthen your legs.

2) Strengthen you abs; you are on the right path.

As someone said, increasing your abdominal strength is somewhat like adding another set of back erectors.

3) The lower back is quickly and easily over trained. That is one of the reason the Powerlifter usually only train it once a week, etc.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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thouqht said:
the way I was doing it was causing me lower back soreness.
Click to expand...

Kenny has some good information there, but I'm curious about the "soreness".

As Kenny says, the muscles being sore can be a good indication that they're being worked. But that might not be the kind of soreness you mean. If the muscles aren't being worked very hard, which can be the case if you aren't able to hold your back in the position you feel strongest - neutral curves - then the soreness could be aggravation of other tissues, and that sort of thing. Not to dwell on the soreness, but when do you feel it and what does it feel like? Did you change your training because it was a constant daily aggravation, or because you felt like it was telling you something was wrong? What led you to cut out heavy squats but not deadlifts?

thouqht said:
it seems like the rest of my body is consistently stronger than my back/abs which leads to me rounding somewhat with any kind of useful weight or intensity
Click to expand...

If you feel like your form is good to, say, 250 lb deadlift, and you start to lose your good back position at, say, 275 lbs, then 250 lbs is useful a useful weight or intensity for training your back. Start there and progress upward. If it's technique (cuing, IAP, position), you'll move up quickly. If it's actually your back muscles, you'll move up less quickly, but you will move up strongly.
 
@thouqht, a few thouqhts for you (pun intended).

There is something to be said for being able to, given perfect conditions, squat perfectly. That's what the goblet squat facilitates, and why I would like you to post a video of your goblet squat. It's important to note that doing a goblet squat doesn't mean you _will_ squat perfectly - in fact, the GS will let you get away with squatting poorly, but it's the best of all worlds for trying to find yourself in a deep squat without any postural compromises.

So, if you cannot do this in a goblet squat, then I suggest the first thing you work on is your goblet squat. Learn what beautiful squatting feels like. A big, old heavy barbell squat is definitely not the same thing, but nonetheless a GS is where I think almost everyone should start.

Second, as far as deadlifting goes, it is one thing to "lock in" your entire spine but the only part of your spine you _must_ lock in is your lumbar or lower spine. It is something of an advanced skill to round one's upper back without rounding the lumbar, but it can be learned. If you'll forgive a rather extreme example, here I am a year or three ago, way rounding my upper back but not my lumbar on a Zercher DL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9tXiDTrbBE

Last but not least, what sort of direct ab work are you doing? You might find adding some of that, after your DL's (think: finisher) will help you.

-S-
 
Thanks for all of the feedback - had a bit of a breakthrough. I think my hamstrings are WAY to tight. I never thought this was the case because I could bend over/put my hands on the ground etc, but I'm realizing now, the reason I could do that was BECAUSE I have a long torso & arms. I would just round my torso and make up for the fact that my hamstrings barely went anywhere.

@Steve Freides -
I'm not going to post form videos because the nature of my work makes it so that if I put my identity on here, then I'll have to be much more conscious about what I post rather than just being a normal user.

However, your zercher video + the examination of the pictures of Pavel in the 2nd edition S&S book I just got for my brother for Christmas (really impressed with the update btw) have made it clear that my hinge depth is the issue. You go to almost 90 degrees with your low back set in that video - I can get to about 40 degrees.

Long arms/torso + extra knee bend have simply allowed me to hide from this... there was a period previously where I massively increased my hip flexibility due to my lack of motion in this area causing an injury. Looks like my hamstrings now need the same treatment.

@Anna C - you're right the soreness is not muscular soreness, it's more like something in the spine. In the past it used to crack and feel better if I did certain stretches, but I can no longer get it to crack myself but it goes away if I don't work it too hard for a while. I'm hesitant to get hooked on a chiropractor as well & would rather just strengthen it so that it doesn't need constant adjustment.

So it looks like beyond the core work, I need to work on hinge flexibility. Any recommended resources on that?
 
Sounds like you're on the right track.

The books "Flexible Steel" and "Relax into Stretch" are both good resources. But hamstring stretches are simple -- you can feel when you're in a static hamstring stretch position, right? Many different positions work. You can sit on the floor and just stretch one leg at a time out in front of you. The magic comes from breathing and waiting out the tension. Long tall spine, hinge at the hips to lean forward, don't worry about how far you go. Inhale and sit up tall (tall spine). Then exhale slowly. Elongate the exhale with some restriction (the "Darth Vader" breath works well), leaning forward a little more as you exhale, but not rounding your spine. Pause for a few seconds after the exhale. Repeat. Give it time. Don't stretch the muscle -- relax it. You'll be amazed.
 
@thouqht, I understand - I know people in similar situations regarding their work.

Please consider, then working with an SFG in person, working with an SFG over the Internet by sending videos rather than posting them publicly - a number of us here are pretty trustworthy :) -
or attending one of our courses. We have a list of instructors near you displaying much of the time on the right side of the forum screen, and we also have a different but equally good Instructor Search feature on our web site proper.

-S-
 
I’ve found low back rounding occurs mostly with an inability properly brace before a lift. This involves your core yes, but locking your torso tight via grip, lat and oblique tension often remedies this issue

a lax torso before a pull or squat will often force the lower back to pick up the slack, as it is the last line of defense from the hip up.
 
Philippe Geoffrion said:
I’ve found low back rounding occurs mostly with an inability properly brace before a lift. This involves your core yes, but locking your torso tight via grip, lat and oblique tension often remedies this issue

a lax torso before a pull or squat will often force the lower back to pick up the slack, as it is the last line of defense from the hip up.
Click to expand...

True, and I agree! Often what seems to be hamstring tightness is just the hamstrings "winning the war" for control of the pelvis so that it starts to turn under at the bottom of the squat. The low back extensors being active and all-around good bracing can fix the problem.
 
Looks like a lot of great answers so far here. I'd just be sure you have the hip range of motion to achieve good position when lifting. The OS rocking back is a great screen for this, you should be able to comfortably rock back with a flat back
 
Have you tried sumo deadlifting?

Do you wear a belt? If so, quit using it or only use it for top work set perhaps.

Best work I have added for a solid midsection is:

Heavy weighted back extensions. (work up to this of course) I don't think 200 pounds is unreasonable for sets of 10.
L sit chin ups.-grease the groove style. Try to turn this into an chin up plank eventually.
Most floor pressing work done in combination with leg lifts,
 
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