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Other/Mixed Toe touch

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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theferune

Level 2 Valued Member
Dear SF community,

I have never been flexible. I remember that our tennis couch measured our sitting toe touch when we were kids, I would say less than 10 years old. I wasn´t able to touch my toes even then. I was never limited by my flexibility until recently I started with kickboxing. I don´t actually think that it is muscle flexibility what is limiting me, my guess is that it is weakness. In other words lack of flexibility is more likely consequence than cause. Why do I think that? Stretching never helped me by much. When I´m doing toe touches, I don´t feel any sensation in my hamstrings, just in the area "behind the knee" it feels more like tendon or ligament stretch. Progressing is really hard, but not impossible. Problem is that if I miss just few days, I´m back where I was. Plus it just feels weird, I think that this kind of stretching might do more harm than good to me.

Currently as gyms are closed, I´m doing naked warrior nearly every day, snatches 3-4 times a week, and pull ups twice a week. Few weeks ago I bought Original Strength Reloaded, and I´m doing the basic resets every day.

25 years old male, 189cm/81kg, sedentary lifestyle.

My issue are kicks. I just can´t kick high enough, head kick is impossible. Body kick is hard, uncontrolled, I lose stability and feel pain in hip joint.

What would you do?
 
Hello,

@theferune
Welcome to SF.

I practice French Boxing, which uses kicks a lot as well. Head kicks are usually not limited by a lack of knee flexibility. Of course, a flexible knee is useful if you like to perform a "snap" at the end of the kick (but this is more a French boxing technique than a kickboxing technique).

Head kick ability is deeply linked to hip opening and hip flexibility. Some guys in the course can not touch their toes, but have extremely good head kicks. So if I were in your shoes, I would tackle this first. Below is a great video from Ido Portal which works great:


Then, I would work on my frontal and lateral split (with a "pancake" as a transition between the two).

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
If you have the means I would consider getting an FMS done. The results of that might give you some insight (and some roads to take for solutions)
 
Following on from Offwidth's great suggestion, by chance the FMS posted this video today. It may or may not be useful to the OP....

 
Thank you for all the replies.

I will continue with what I am doing now, plus I will add the Ido´s squat routine.

Concerning the FMS, I have actually went through it few years ago. It was in a local gym in my town. I don´t remember my exact score, but I was told, that it was not bad at all. The guy told me, to work on my ankle, thoratic spine and hip mobility. I´m not sure, whether he did the test correctly. He was just starting with it and the price was about 50% of what it costs in the nearest city :D I didn´t even get any papers. Taking the test now is impossible, but I´ll do it again as soon as government allows.
 
@theferune

All of the previous comments are good stuff.

You can do the standing toe touch at home right now. All you need is a large bath towel and small hand towel.

Try this with shoes on -

Roll up the large towel. This will be used to elevate the toes.

Stand on the towel with a narrow stance and place the small rolled up towel between the knees.

Squeeze the towel between the knees and proceed to "AIM" for the toe touch with your arms.

You don't actually have to touch them, just aim. Bend the knees slightly on the way down.

Perform 2-3 sets of 10 reps per day.
 
theferune said:
My issue are kicks. I just can´t kick high enough, head kick is impossible. Body kick is hard, uncontrolled, I lose stability and feel pain in hip joint.

What would you do?
Click to expand...

You will need to stretch often, after you train. Start doing kicking drills as high as you can comfortably go, do not push the elevation. The basic mechanics are only different by degrees, so you are not handicapping yourself. You want your form to be rock solid at whatever height you can manage. Attempting higher will only lead to bad form that will have to be unlearned.

Over time, with good form and basic stretching, you'll be able to increase your elevation - don't fight for it.

The biggest issue with higher kicks tend to be groin flexibility, although hamstrings as well - depends if round, front or side.
 
theferune said:
I don´t actually think that it is muscle flexibility what is limiting me, my guess is that it is weakness. In other words lack of flexibility is more likely consequence than cause.
Click to expand...
Have you been doing things to build kicking specific strength like slow kicking while holding on to a chair or wall for balance. Or wall drills where you lift the straight leg sideways in side kick position for reps, again holding a wall for balance?

I've also been told that flexibility is kind of speed specific. Being able to do the splits doesn't guarantee high kicks.
 
I second @Brett Jones comment - kicking to an ROM where it hurts can potentially have the opposite of the effect you want. Nervous system instinctively pulls back on the ROM to avoid pain, and you don't want to keep reinforcing that response.

Personally, I'm not terribly flexible - I can touch my toes, sure, but not by a large margin. But, I can get a front snap or roundhouse kick up to the head of an opponent my height without hurting myself. I think static flexibility helps, but I don't think it's necessarily the dominant limiter for good kicks.

I'd steer you towards dynamic mobility - moving in and out of the extreme end of your ROM, rather than just sitting in it. I like the tactical frog, split switches, moving in and out of a deep lunge, that sort of thing. And don't underestimate the effect that your spine rotational mobility can have on your ability to kick. Bretzels & seated twists are my favorites for working on that stuff.

In the end, kicking is a skill, and flexibility is a grind. I don't think there are easy answers, both are things that take a long time to acquire.
 
Big thanks to everyone. I somehow combined everything above and touching toes is no longer problem (if I´m warmed up). Can´t say whether kicks got better too, because I had no opportunity to kick the bag (or someone else) last weeks. I guess that kicks are going to need more time, but it´s motivating me to see progress anyway.
 
theferune said:
Dear SF community,

I have never been flexible. I remember that our tennis couch measured our sitting toe touch when we were kids, I would say less than 10 years old. I wasn´t able to touch my toes even then. I was never limited by my flexibility until recently I started with kickboxing. I don´t actually think that it is muscle flexibility what is limiting me, my guess is that it is weakness. In other words lack of flexibility is more likely consequence than cause. Why do I think that? Stretching never helped me by much. When I´m doing toe touches, I don´t feel any sensation in my hamstrings, just in the area "behind the knee" it feels more like tendon or ligament stretch. Progressing is really hard, but not impossible. Problem is that if I miss just few days, I´m back where I was. Plus it just feels weird, I think that this kind of stretching might do more harm than good to me.

Currently as gyms are closed, I´m doing naked warrior nearly every day, snatches 3-4 times a week, and pull ups twice a week. Few weeks ago I bought Original Strength Reloaded, and I´m doing the basic resets every day.

25 years old male, 189cm/81kg, sedentary lifestyle.

My issue are kicks. I just can´t kick high enough, head kick is impossible. Body kick is hard, uncontrolled, I lose stability and feel pain in hip joint.

What would you do?
Click to expand...
There are no shortcuts where it comes to flexibility and mobility.
In terms of kicking you should prioritize technique and isometric holds while keeping the foot/knee high. And just pratice that until you get good at it. Thousands, and thousands of times. Pivoting the foot, point the target and hold.
Repeat, repeat, repeat...
Things will come with patience. Sometimes you should push yourself a little bit harder, others take it more easy. Practicing kicks will also help you to free your movement and your hips for sure.

Where it comes to flexibility I just simply do not believe that is possible to do both splits without experiencing any pain in the stretching sessions, you need to be resilient, if you really want this.
I do not also believe that it is possible to archive full splits without isometrics. They are crucial. Nobody likes it, I hated to stretch that way, but it was the more reliable way to gain flexibility.

Even I archived the splits without reading Relax into stretching from pavel, I highly recommend you to check this book and bill superfoot Wallace routine, which was the one that enabled me to do the splits.

And I think that there is no complex or magic stretch that will enable you to do them. Iam not disillusional. I tried everything out there and they no other means rather than patience and constant effort.



But you don't need to be super flexible to kick high.
Although I do both splits, keeping the knee high a learn proper movement is more important than the flexibility aspect, I think. Combine flexibility with some strength. It will help you in both. My choice of preference for killer kicks are the pistol and swing. Also like to do some alternate cleans.

Kind regards
 

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theferune said:
Big thanks to everyone. I somehow combined everything above and touching toes is no longer problem (if I´m warmed up). Can´t say whether kicks got better too, because I had no opportunity to kick the bag (or someone else) last weeks. I guess that kicks are going to need more time, but it´s motivating me to see progress anyway.
Click to expand...
You should pratice more isometrics and proper technique in the chair, rather than practicing technique while hitting a target.
At the beginning is not the optimal way, if you really want to be a good kicker. Because it makes you disperse the energy and let you kick with the knee down.
The knee is crucial. More than the hips.
You feel pain on the hips because you relying to much on the circular movement to send the foot high. At this moment your leg goes numb and your knee down.
Two reasons for that:
Lack of technique and flexibility.

Be resilient ?. Pratice. You will archive it.
 
Pavel Macek's Leopard Series is excellent for the hips, and a recent article on stretching from Maffetone.

philmaffetone.com

The growing case against stretching - Dr. Phil Maffetone

This long-standing tradition from PE classes of yore is finally on its way out. Real physical flexibility = aerobic + warm up + strength. Perhaps no activity is more ingrained across...
philmaffetone.com philmaffetone.com

After 2-4 rounds of the Leopard Series I like to add this hip mobility complex by Steve Cotter.

 
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