Kettlebell Too fast, or too old?

[RWolfe]

In late November I started back on S&S after about a five month layoff due to a bicep tendon injury. Last spring I had followed the program for about 2 months straight (6-7x per week)and was up to a 24K TGU and 28K swing (don't own a 32k yet). Anyway, I followed what I thought was a reasonably slow re-entry to the program, first couple weeks I only did 3x per week and I dropped all the way back to a 16k bell.... but that didn't last long as it was way too light.... Anyway, over the next three weeks I picked my frequency back up to 6x per week and took my swing weight back to 24, and then started working in some 28k 2H.
All was going well but the first morning of my 5th week I had just started my second swing set when I felt something go loose in my lower back and that ended my session for the day... and the week. it has now been about 2 1/2 weeks, and my back is fine again....and I am ready to go back to training... which brings me, finally, to my question...
Assuming that my form is correct... (I have had it checked by RKC certified instructor) is it more likely that I just went back up in weight too quickly, or is S&S 6x a week too aggressive for a 53 year old? Despite the relatively "light" effort, I wonder if I am not giving body time to recover and maybe should do every other day? For those in the forum that are my age and older, can anyone share their experience?
One additional point... I have been using KBs on and off for several years, have been a Pavel disciple from the start and have done I am sure 1000s of swings, never had a back issue before.

 

[Steve Freides]

Assuming that my form is correct... (I have had it checked by RKC certified instructor) is it more likely that I just went back up in weight too quickly, or is S&S 6x a week too aggressive for a 53 year old?

We cannot speak to another program - I recommend you find yourself one of our instructors. (The next question is usually, "Are your programs really that different?" and the answer is, "I don't know - I don't know what they do in the other program.") You are welcomed to post a video here for comment as well.

Internet diagnosis is worth what you pay for it but I'll hazard a guess - perhaps your form, whoever and whenever it was checked out, isn't consistent and you got hurt when you weren't tight enough for whatever reason. Consider a bit of supplementary abdominal training and see if that helps you - it's well documented that strong abs help back health.

Ultimately, one can't just decide to increase training volume; one has to be mindful of good form and stop before you lose that, even if it means not completing the planned session for the day.

-S-

 

[Anna C]

perhaps your form, whoever and whenever it was checked out, isn't consistent and you got hurt when you weren't tight enough for whatever reason

This is gold, right here. The few times that I tweaked something during a kettlebell workout weren't caused by a gross error in form, but by not being tight enough for a brief moment or by holding tension incorrectly. This is something that cannot even be detected by an observer. Intent self-monitoring and awareness is the only protection.

 

[banzaiengr]

I'm 56 and for me S&S 6x/week on a regular basis would be too much. That's me and I have other stressors such as an irregular sleep pattern and irregular meals. That may be another area to look at when deciding your session volume, outside stressors.

I've had low back and hip problems for 26 years after injuring my back squatting. I tried everything looking for answers and nothing helped like using kettlebells, doing swings, and getting the instruction of a great SFG.

Not knowing what your back problems are and not being a trainer would and should keep me from telling you to do this or do that, also don't compare what you're doing with others. Try different things, find a good coach and do what works for you.

 

[Benedictine Monk]

Based on damage I sustained to my radial nerve back in 2010, I would finger the likely culprit as subconscious "guarding" behavior.
You're leery of re-injuring your biceps tendon and are trying to reign in the force output by unintentionally creating an energy leak.
The other possibility is one that used to happen to me when I was much younger -- when I was overtrained I would get a momentary
relaxation in a muscle group under load (can be disastrous if you're in a squat) which seemed to be the body's way of telling me my
nervous system was headed for a power failure and I better shut it down.

I am 51 and I wrestle with the volume question as well. I'm currently trying to do 5 days a week M-F, but often end up at 4 days a week
and I would be curious about people's weekly volume levels on S&S as they age. Not sure if I should start a new thread as I'm afraid the
Russian Spetznaz Thread Elimination Squad might take me out back of the wood shed for a talking to.

 

[Lew]

"Not sure if I should start a new thread as I'm afraid the
Russian Spetznaz Thread Elimination Squad might take me out back of the wood shed for a talking to."

Have no fear.

By the time you get to the back of the wood shed...

All the talking would be over.

 

[Bill Been]

"Doc, it hurts when I do that".
"Don't do that".

Six times a week? Either you're going to have to go so light you may as well be on a downhill treadmill or you're going to get under-recovered, over-trained, fatigued, and eventually hurt.

The Stress, Recovery, Adaptation cycle is not as quick as we age as it once was. Alas. This astonishing ability younger trainees have to stress themselves hard, recover with lots of food, sleep, and testosterone, and adapt to a higher level of performance in time to do it again day after tomorrow is to be envied. But, us older guys need longer between bouts because we don't make the test we used to make and because we tend to under-eat because our doctors tell us to worry about BMI and fat, and because we don't absorb protein in the digestive tract as readily as we used to. Bummer. But, we still operate on the same system we had as youngsters - it's just a bit slower than it used to be. We become more sensitive to volume and more dependent upon intensity in order to continue progressing.

If I was a bettin' man, I'd say taking your sessions down to every other day might work, but down to one-on/two-off is a possibility. Before folks jump in to tell me the program is designed to be done more often than that, and that that progress will be too slow, I refer you to the fact that his progress has been non-existent for essentially a calendar year and that we have numerous people on the site taking over a year to not accomplish the Simple goals and nobody but me seems to mind.

 

[ali]

On the back of what Anna and Steve has said, I can only agree wholeheartedly but also like to add that form can go pear shaped with fatigue. My own experience with S&S was such.....doing it to chase reps at the expense of form and fatigue means you need to take more recovery. You know, if you are pushing yourself, which you shouldn't do.....which is hard not to do if you've always been active! A heart rate monitor really helped me get in tune with myself. Prior to using a monitor I could maybe manage 2 days on S&S with a 32 before needing a day or 2 off. Once accustommed to using a monitor I could go 3 or 4 days back to back most of the time. I needed more time if my life circumstances dictated it but if all was 'normal' - whatever that is - I kept my fatigue in check, thus focus on form was easier. Steady progress was made, my practice was doable more often, form was better and I duly marched merrily along to the simple goal. I'm a mere 51, a couple of years more youthful. Yes, our age group needs to be a bit more aware of recovery and intensity. Something I find very difficult to manage but I like to think, deludedly perhaps, that I'm better at it these days. It's a work in progress, and always will be. Constant vigilance. A heart rate monitor....esp for S&S....really helped me. You may well have form issues that need to be addressed but the break down of form may be, or maybe not at all, related to fatigue. On the subject of Maffetone and hr.....his formula was derived as he saw athletes' form go out the window when over trained, or training at too high an intensity. It isn't THE only marker for fatigue but it is a pretty handy tool to use to keep you in check. There are 2 blog articles by Pavel and Al Ciampa worth reading and inwardly digesting on how it is applied to S&S and a few exploratory, lively conversations about the whole shebang on the forum, a while back. And of course heaps of stuff on Maffetone's website. And when life throws up its nasty side, you can physically see the effect it has on hr during practice and how recovery is compromised when stressed. And act accordingly, take more rest, do practices with less volume if need be etc. So your form may be off generally but it might go off more so if fatigued, stressed and/or under recovered. All of which can be relevant at any age, of course! Somehow, it is all connected just those connections are different for all of us. A heart rate monitor is a worthwhile tool. Either that or really, really tune in to your body's sensations and use the talk test. The monitor helps establish and assists you to recognise what the talk test should feel like, for you. So it can work in tandem.

 

[Tom Denham]

I'm 58. My testosterone levels were so high a few months ago that my doctor asked if I was taking supplements she didn't know about. I can't imagine training S&S 6 days per week. My goal is 5 days in a row, but when I moved up this past week from the 20 to the 24 kg bell for swings and from the 16 to 20 kg bell for get-ups, I needed to take Friday off and use Saturday as a makeup session. My traps, lats, glutes, and left triceps told me I could go through the motions of a workout, but that I would be smarter to rest for a day and get my fifth workout in a day late. That session went well and I feel good enough to train today (Sunday), but I will enjoy another day of rest and see if I can make it 5 days in a row this coming week.

 

[banzaiengr]

If a student feels the need to push the volume envelop, there's no rule that says you have to use the same bell each day. For instance; MO 28. TU 32. WE 28 TH 28 FR 24.

 

[Lew]

@Tom Denham
When you move up in weight do you go straight to the 100 swings 1H?

If so, that may be what is taxing you so heavily.

At the risk of raising the ire mad of @Bill Been, may I suggest you follow the original template and slow the jump a little?

In other words, when you make the bell weight jump, start with 50 2H swings, working up to 100 2H, and then working in the 1H swings until you are at 100 1H swings.

This progress may seem 'glacial' in perspective, but it is progress and should avoid injury.

This is the path I am on.

And the seemingly slow progress I am having, I consider the price I pay for getting old(54yo), fat(6'0", 256lbs), and T2Diabetic.

If I had started 30 years ago, 20 years ago, even 15 years ago, I am sure this would be going faster.

I believe this is a 'bell' curve, and I am at the bottom looking up.

There will come a time, and I don't know when, where my body stops rebelling and embraces the practice, and my performance grows more quickly.

I am still swinging the 16kg(for 3 months), working in the 1H swings, and working up to the 16kg for TGU.

As stated, I WILL NOT move up in weight until I OWN that 16kg bell.

I understand that to be 100 1H swings in 5 minutes, AND 10 TGU in 10 minutes; all with the 16kg bell.

Will that take me 6 months? Maybe...

Will it take me that long with the 20kg? Probably not.

But then I'm young in Kettlebells.

I'll keep you all posted.

 

[Bill Been]

Lew....what you did there.....I see it. And I spit coffee laughin' ya bastard.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Lew, don't forget to do a little work with a heavier weight from time to time - it will help make you better with the weight you're trying to own. Keep the reps low and your form perfect.

-S-

 

[Pavel Macek]

@RWolfe "53 year old"? What do you mean? You are a young guy, plenty of time - which means no hurry.

 

[Lew]

@Lew, don't forget to do a little work with a heavier weight from time to time - it will help make you better with the weight you're trying to own. Keep the reps low and your form perfect.

-S-

So, maybe swing a 20kg the first 2h set and slowly work those in while my TGU catches up?

 

[Bill Been]

@RWolfe "53 year old"? What do you mean? You are a young guy, plenty of time - which means no hurry.

Excuse me, but.... no. It's one thing to encourage people to believe that "it's never too late to start" and that is correct. But, once he starts, a generic 53 year old most certainly is in a time crunch. His recovery capability is compromised, his protein uptake is muted, his muscle protein synthetic rate is diminished, he has likely dug himself into a strength and body comp hole that must be dug out of, and the sorry truth of it is that every dang day that passes - it gets worse. Sarcopenia is the age-related loss of muscle mass. It is real and it is relentless. Osteopenia is age-related loss of bone mass and it is real and relentless as well. Whether one realizes it or not, a race begins at about age 45ish and if you continue to ignore the urgent need to add tissue, it's a race that your aerobic base cannot help you win. He does not have the time to dick around. He needs to embrace effective, body changing, strength-building exercise and he needs to quit looking for "easy". "Easy" has gotten this generic, nameless trainee to where he is now. It would have been "easy" to add muscle mass and bone matrix at age 20 when his body was wanting to do it anyway. It's not any more. How this nameless, generic 53 year old is going to live out his remaining years is dependent upon what he does right now. Time is a luxury he no longer has.

Strength building and wealth building - the later you start, the more painful it is.

 

[Jason Paul]

I'm not as old as you geezers )), but I'll be 45 this year, so I'm no spring chicken either.

When I was on regular sessions of S&S, I tried a few times to get 5-6 workouts within a week. I found that was too much for me, and believe that 3-4 sessions is the sweet spot (again, for me).

Also if I'm doing S&S, I'm doing 1h swings for all sets. When moving up to a larger kettlebell I would only do one set at first, or a few times split that set in half or so (5L/5R, 5L/5R counted as one set), but they were all one-handed.

 

[Pavel Macek]

@Bill Been

Agreed, but....

In China they say: "The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is now."

My advice to @RWolfe is:

- take it slowly
- do your joint mobility routine every single day, foam roll, stretch. FMS would be great.
- practice the S&S move-prep, practice swings and get-ups - don't worry about numbers, work on technique, movement, skill. S&S will develop an excellent foundation for any future programs.
- eat clean.
- get enough sleep.
- take it easy, no stress.

Many of my students are in their 50s or 60s.

Pavel's father has started powerlifting in his 70s.

John Sullivan passed the rigorous tests of SFGII 70 years young. No Excuses Allowed.

 

[Tom Denham]

@Lew

I jumped straight from the 20 to the 24 kg bell, but there is a back story... I completed 6 weeks of one-handed swings with the 32-kg bell doing the Lazy Endurance research protocol earlier. My 3,320 swings were not pretty, but I got stronger and better amazingly fast. I swung the 20 kg bell as a rest week as I came back to S&S after about a year of focusing on other programs. I will make a gradual transition from the 24 to the 32 kg bell, but am in no hurry to move up now.

Also, my need to take a day off may have had more to do with the fact that I have been reading The Naked Warrior and practiced compression and getting tight doing two-handed push-ups (3 x 7) after my S&S workout. I did the push-ups again on Saturday and was fine the next day, but I can't rule out that tension play as the culprit.

 

[Boosh32]

I am 67 years old and just into my third month of S&S. I practice seven days a week and take a rare day off when my body tells me. I am on 7x10 swings with 16kg. Maybe I will be doing 10x10s by the end of January or maybe not, I will meet the S&S standard in time. It is a journey, not a race. I am making progress every day. Some days I feel strong and some days I feel my form is improving.