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Kettlebell Torque, power, Muay Thai and Kettlebells

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guardian7

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I started at a new Muay Thai gym. It is more like a boxing gym where there is a lot of free time and more individual pointers from the Kru (Instructor). Before, I had more of a "class" standup format from a MMA fighter at a fitness gym.

This new coach teaches "pure" Muay Thai and I am learning a lot more about power and posture than my MMA standup class. Basically, the coach explained why straight posture is so important because you are torquing around a straight body like a pole. The MMA type of more crouching stance interferes with the type of power generation but is necessary to protect against takedowns. We had a guy visit our gym once who had been fighting in Thailand and everyone was amazed at how straight his posture was and how effortlessly he hit.

So, the Kru at my gym had this kid who is an intermediate hold a Kettlebell by the horns and torque his body like a woodchopper but a tighter arc. I have not seen that before. The weight was really light. Our gym has kettlebells so I can get in my S&S after class.

Does anyone in martial arts do KB movements that aid rotational power? Or should weight be avoided for such power movements? Opposing arm leg core standing crunch like original strength? I should imagine that the anti-rotational core benefits of the one arm swing would help. It seems like rotational and lateral movements are not well trained in most systems of fitness including hardstyle KB. There is also a TRX in the gym. Oblique crunches on a TRX are an option.

The Kru is great on MT principles, but not that knowledgeable about KB or exercise science. His background is purely amateur and professional fighting. I don't like his crossfit lite type of approach to conditioning and the KB swing format used at the gym makes me cringe. I helped a couple of guys already but I don't want to be "that guy" correcting everyone as I am new, older, and a MT beginner.

I am just doing MT for fitness but I have become interested in applying hardstyle principles to it. I know Strongfirst is developing a combat course which is an interesting development. There is a lot of room to improve understanding of breathing in combat sports compared to traditional arts I think. I now understand much better the passage in the S&S book about relaxation/contraction and power now. I don't get as tired hitting the pads but the power output is much greater than before.

Does anyone use kettlebells for martial arts in any different ways other than a standard RoP or S&S program? BJJ guys?
 
I wouldn't be swinging a kettlebell around that axis. Seems like it's begging for an over extension.

Watch any pro fight camp on YouTube and they use med ball wall throws, plyometrics or band pulls for explosive work.

Joel Jamieson is the man for fighter conditioning imo. Look up his book it aligns with a lot of Strong First principles.
 
I do slashers - basically a halo but brought down to hip level on the forward "slash".

I bend my receiving knee in place and torque the body instead of taking a lunge step as is most often demo'd. I also alternate every rep.

I use a 16kg - for reference I can press the 32 about 5-6 times.

I am not sure on the benefit for power generation relative to muay thai though I'd be surprised if it didn't improve hook punch power, esp to the body. Pad and bag work will probably ingrain more and condition more than any offset or rotational lifting you could do.

Edit to add:
has been many years since I trained MT, but I now recall doing a fair amount of slow heavy bag work with ankle weights. I'd do a few minutes of that, take them off, and into my kick routine. I would also wear them shadow boxing while drilling kick defense/counter foot jabbing - again all done slowly.

There aren't any KB movements I can think of that mirror closely enough the oblique activation needed for powerful shin kicking. Hot potatoes perhaps if executed with more of a side to side lean...
 
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Dan_123 said:
I wouldn't be swinging a kettlebell around that axis. Seems like it's begging for an over extension.

Watch any pro fight camp on YouTube and they use med ball wall throws, plyometrics or band pulls for explosive work.

Joel Jamieson is the man for fighter conditioning imo. Look up his book it aligns with a lot of Strong First principles.
Click to expand...

Great source in Jamieson. Thanks. As you said a very scientific understanding that works with Strongfirst. Yes, I need to dig up my old medicine ball I think. The kid was not twisting with much power. More like a dumbell woodchopper. Still I think the medicine ball is a good suggestion.
 
North Coast Miller said:
I do slashers - basically a halo but brought down to hip level on the forward "slash".
Click to expand...

Slasher is new to me. Thanks.

This looks good: tall kneeling slasher. A halo at the top could easily be added. Slow and controlled.
This variation looks asking for trouble and would be better with a medicine ball.
 
I would just stick with 1HS swings for your rotational/anti-rotation power. You can do swings with your feet slightly off set for a very similar affect that your looking for. Even a very small weight swung with to much force and /or in the wrong direction can cause some very serious injuries.
 
guardian7 said:
Slasher is new to me. Thanks.

This looks good: tall kneeling slasher. A halo at the top could easily be added. Slow and controlled.
This variation looks asking for trouble and would be better with a medicine ball.
Click to expand...



This is how mine look mostly, except I follow through every rep and instead of taking a step I bend the knee on the receiving side and pivot on the ball of the off side foot - the same footwork as if I were throwing a hook or corkscrew with the rear hand.



Ultimately you will get more benefit from just doing a ton of the actual movement.

Side question - do they have you doing any separate shin conditioning or is it left to the bag and pad work?

I still remember rolling mine with a dowel and tapping with a fan of heavy gauge wire. Used to drive the wife nuts, but they're still functional after 20 + years.
 
North Coast Miller said:
This is how mine look mostly, except I follow through every rep and instead of taking a step I bend the knee on the receiving side and pivot on the ball of the off side foot - the same footwork as if I were throwing a hook or corkscrew with the rear hand.



Ultimately you will get more benefit from just doing a ton of the actual movement.
Click to expand...


I practiced a lot of body shots on the heavy bag today and that was of course effective. I will give the slasher a try tomorrow.
 
Look up the tall kneeling thread. Some great info and has links to a good video by Dan John and Gray Cook.
 
My limited input from sport specific exercise lectures tells that replicating specific kick movement using kettlebell requires thorough knowledge and experiment on various levels.

Steve Baccari's name will come up to mind when it comes to striking arts and kettlebell.
 
Well, I tried out all the suggestions today. Thank you all. Here are my conclusions:

1. For power, I will stick with the old school medicine ball as Dan123 suggests. KB is not optimal for this type of work I think. You can torque a medicine ball much faster without worrying about accidents or injury and even throw it. Working my hooks and thai kicks are plenty of practice for torque. I need to focus on relaxing, breathing, and hitting through the target, not worring about dropping a bell. Heavy bag hooks are exhausting enough in volume for me.
2. However, the tall kneeling slasher is brilliant combined with a halo to transition from side to side. It works core stability, helps with pelvic tilt and hip flexors which are too tight and feel good on the shoulders. I agree with Wesker11, I should revisit that movement. I tried the lunging KB slasher version but I have neglected that movement pattern and lack coordination. Lunges with light KB are sufficiently challenging unfortunately.
3. Taikei's suggestion of Steve Baccari was useful. I will add waiter walks with lightish KB for duration (3 min alteration boxing bell maybe). Will help with the strength to keep my guard up and resist the burn. Will use it as a finisher when my shoulders are already worked from striking and TGUs. I made the mistake of doing too much bag work before doing my TGUs yesterday. Mistake.
4. Pleased with the advice in this thread. Thanks.
 
Hi Guardian, I don't do Muay Thai, however I do box for fun. The 2 kettle bell exercises that helped me a lot with my punches were the kettle bell swing and the kettle bell snatch. The kettle bell swing strengthen my hips and I learned how to engage more of hips when punching which translated to being able to put more power behind my punches. The kettle bell snatch helped me to put more of a snap behind of my punches meaning I learn when to tighten my fist right before impact.
 
@Waffles03, that is interesting about the snatch. I am not there yet, still need to improve me S&S and press. I see some people grip more but others open their hand on the top of the snatch in video. Do you mean that you grip extra hard at the top of the snatch. Would you mind explaining this more. The WTH effects of the swing are clear, but I am interested in learning more about how you feel the snatch helps. I am middle aged and doing Muay Thai for fitness and stress relief mainly, not competitive, for efficiency is especially important to me in fitness. I am very pleased at the transfer of hardstyle KB to general fitness and other skills compared to traditional gym weightlifting. As you imply, traditional gym lifting does not develop power, which is critically important and declines particularly with age unless trained I read recently.
 
Hi Guardian, I'll try to do my best at explaining. LOL Although I'm good with numbers, not so much with grammar.

In regards with the snatch, I have a firm grip of the kettle bell or dumbbell. As I initiate the movement, I explode the weight upward. Then my arm, shoulder and grip becomes more relaxed, similar to a whipping motion. As the momentum continue to carry the weight over and above my head, my grip and arm becomes tense. Just like when you throw your punch, your arm is relaxed and right before you hit your target, you tense up to transfer the power. The thing I like about the kettle bell snatch that it teach you how to align your wrist right before you lock out. LoL, hopefully that makes sense.

If you have any other questions, just let me know and I'll try my best to answer them. But anyways, that cool your doing Muay Thai and I hope you continue training with success.
 
I'll toss in a couple of last recommendations that are not kettlebell - looks like you have plenty of good suggestions to work with already.

Sandbag work is great for building in close power and drilling leverage. Getting comfortable with bearhug carries/squats/DL will improve your clinch.

Clubbells combined with your MT footwork are a great way to reinforce punching leverage and timing. I would not recommend just standing there and executing movements, but when combined with footwork it will improve the entire package notably. Once you become accustomed to this, you should find a huge improvement in your sparring footwork. It helps to start slow and exaggerate the footwork/body torquing, speeding up as you become more proficient.
 
For rotational strength bent press, windmill, get-up any one arm ballistic also. One arm press and movements with different weight kettlebells in left and right hand.
 
And to further answer your post yes I use kettlebells to train martial artists. My wife Reneta and I are going to StrongFirst Combat Course this weekend in NC.
 
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