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Kettlebell Training Beyond 32kg

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Brian

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Hello all,

First, let me take a moment and introduce myself, my name is Brian and I've been following an ETK-like program for a little less than a year now to boost my rowing performance. Prior to this, I experimented with a few different weight routines before finding something that was really engaging - kettlebells. Anyway, I'm now at the point of being able to do the whole progression with a 32kg. For a while now, I've been considering getting a 40kg and a 48kg, but I assume like all things, eventually there is a point of diminishing returns, or a point where the offset torque starts to wear on tendons and joints. The latter is especially concerning as size-wise I'm 5' 10" and hovering around 170lbs/11%BF, so there's not a huge amount of mass to offset unbalanced loads. For those of you who've been using KB's for a few years, do you see value in moving beyond 32kg? Or is it time to start focusing more on double-KB work, or even go back to something like a 5x5?

Thanks,

Brian
 
Hey Brian, welcome to the forum!

Maybe yes, maybe no. What are your goals, and what is it that you're trying to do with kettlebells in order to get yourself closer to those goals?

Also, when you say "the whole progression," which progression from ETK do you mean, the Program Minimum or Rite of Passage? A little more information about where you're at might be helpful.
 
@Brian ,
@Snowman is right. It really depends upon what your goals are.
When you say rowing, do you mean competitive rowing?
If so, and that is what you are training for then I would say, there is probably little value in anything over a 32.

And... welcome to SF...
 
Is there any point in going past 32kg? I think in terms of the 1h swings, no. In terms of the TGUs, yes. Why? Swings are already amplifying their weight by how hard you swing them. Their actual weight is only a fraction of their virtual weight. So, all you have to do is to do the swings harder with better form, and voila, you're stronger. With TGUs, there is no virtual weight involved, so you literally have to use heavier weights to get stronger. But, 32kg is strong enough for TGUs in this world.

The book says that 32kg is heavy enough for practical strength in this world. I totally agree. But heavy enough is not the same as heavy as I can. Heavy as I can is a better attitude, and is healthier, provided it isn't too heavy. In my experience, 32kg is as heavy as I can really do the swings, and 40kg the TGUs. I want to see if I can get to Sinister though, since Pavel put out the challenge.
 
Thanks for the welcome and the replies. Right now, I’d say my goal is general strength and endurance, maybe with a tilt towards strength. Adding some extra lean mass wouldn’t hurt my feelings either. Since it’ll be about $170 to get a second 32 and about $400 for a 40 and a 48 (including shipping), I want to make sure there really are definite benefits. I don’t mind spending the extra money, but if it’s marginal, I could probably find a better use for that money.

Though I don’t row competitively, I do row at a competitive level, frequently pulling sub-6:30 2k times on the erg. Initially, I began training with kettlebells only as a supplement to my rowing, but now it’s taken on a life of its own. Regarding the rite of passage, I was referring to the workout I do, based on the more advanced ETK workout (may not have used the right lingo before), with swings, TGUs, deadlifts, squats, snatches, clean/press, floor presses, etc. I double-up with a 32 in one hand and a 24 in the other (alternating of course) for deadlifts, squats, and rows, but perform most movements as unilaterals with the 32kg.
 
Kozushi,

That does provide some perspective as I tend to push towards “heavy as I can.” With rowing, given my VO2 max and current power output, I am painfully aware that I’m probably approaching the anatomical limits of my performance. Is there room for improvement? Certainly, but every gain will be exponentially smaller and harder won than the last. Short of gaining large amounts of muscle and finding a way to use oxygen more efficiently, I could train an hour a day or several, but, I’m likely at the point where the extra volume or intensity won’t make up for the extra effort, or wear and tear.

Kettlebells are still kind of a new world for me, where I’m still making gains, but they’re definitely coming slower now. I know that that limit is out there somewhere I just don’t know where, or how to tell when you’re approaching it.
 
The latter is especially concerning as size-wise I'm 5' 10" and hovering around 170lbs/11%BF, so there's not a huge amount of mass to offset unbalanced loads.

For Clean & Press probably ? If you can properly do the cycle with 32 kg then there is a point in getting 40 kg. Tendons will adapt to loads, just like muscles, but tendons develop slower than muscles, so take it easy. If you're worried about joints, they strengthen too when properly used. Have your form checked by a SFG / video on the forum, if thats good and 32 kg becomes 'easy, and you like your current routine enough to continue with it. Then the next bell will do you well I guess. Standing straight as possible is the bonus challenge.

You can give your joints extra love too. Arm circles, shoulder dislocations. I love these for my shoulders, and had benefit using them in my warm ups.
 
@Brian.....I don't own a heavier bell either. I got to simple, done other things and have gone back to S&S but not in an almost daily way, 2-3 a week. I'm also the same height and weight as you too and see your point. The thing is as @Kozushi pointed out, you can swing harder and faster!! I get so much more power in my swings these days than I did previously and wonder really how I defined my swings then. I haven't tested myself or tried to work on time this S&S around.....I just bang them out. My current thoughts and plans are after this period: get good at snatching, improve other kb skills, maybe sfg cert, deadlifting maybe.....a good while before I get a 40. Lots of mileage left to milk the 32. There is the argument that working a 40 will make the 32 easier. My next bell is a smoother handled 24 for snatching. Decisions, decisions....
 
@pet' has really good point. 32kg is heavy kettlebell. If I can press, get up, snatch and swing it 30 years from now. I’m propably stronger than 90% guys in that 60+ age range...
Actually it is pretty strong also now. Most of the people who don’t lift can’t press that overhead.
 
Hello,

@Sauli underlines a very important point. Basically, it can be a worth working goal to do all the moves with the heaviest weight we can. For instance, all the moves with the 40 kg. For most people, 32 may be just fine. I perfectly agree with Sauli.

As always, it all depends on the goal. If someone is mostly after strength, we can assume that the guy will be able to use heavier bell with GU, press, BnP than with swing or snatches. Plus, some moves "mechanically" permit to lift heavier: BnP permits to lift more than standard press for instance.

Regarding "everyday training" regarding kettlebell, I tend to mostly use 40 for swings, and 36 for BnP. I already did swings with 44 but I have to be careful with recovery. 40 or less are more easily doable. Plus I am naturally more an endurance guy than a strength guy. However, my bdw training and also my BnP training ensure me more strength than I need, compared to the guys of my age (28 yo). Same applies for endurance.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
From my experience, all weights have unique roles. Just like screw drivers for various screws,

Pressing a 40kg requires specific training. And what if double 32kg front squat, double 32kg double swing plays a huge role handling 40kg overhead press.

This is just my individual experience. No need to rush, role a dice and pick one, then another few years later.
 
Welcome, @Brian

I've been following an ETK-like program for a little less than a year now to boost my rowing performance

Here is a podcast that is equally heavy on rowing and kettlebells -- check it out! LEO Training: Strength & Conditioning | Endurance | Health | Performance | Injury Prevention | Joe DeLeo

For a while now, I've been considering getting a 40kg and a 48kg, but I assume like all things, eventually there is a point of diminishing returns, or a point where the offset torque starts to wear on tendons and joints. The latter is especially concerning as size-wise I'm 5' 10" and hovering around 170lbs/11%BF, so there's not a huge amount of mass to offset unbalanced loads. For those of you who've been using KB's for a few years, do you see value in moving beyond 32kg? Or is it time to start focusing more on double-KB work, or even go back to something like a 5x5?

I would say it depends on your goals and how you like to train. But you can get a lot of insight into following those who have achieved a lot with the heavier bells. Good example from today, StrongFirst Team Leader Brian Meyers 6 x 10 1H swings w/ 56kg. I have no doubt he'll be on the Sinister list soon...

As for "a point where the offset torque starts to wear on tendons and joints", I actually haven't seen anything to suggest that. Kettlebells seem to make everything adapt together. But technique becomes ever more important as you go up in weight, so coaching and instruction are always a good investment for anyone, regardless of the level they are working.
 
"a point where the offset torque starts to wear on tendons and joints"
Same here, never seen this circumstance under my guidance.
Heavy strict press either goes overhead comfortably or kettlebell stays at rack and doesn't budge.
Offset weight works in favor if done properly.

If you try to push press or jerk with "unpacked" shoulder, then that could get you injured but no instructors will allow that to students.
 
I have no doubt he'll be on the Sinister list soon...
Is it just me, or is he a little bigger than he was in the last video I watched with him ;)? I think that would have been from a year ago or something. Maybe it was just the headband...

@Brian I think you're at the point where the best thing you can do is make your that your technique is on point. You're obviously pretty strong/powerful, and your goals are pretty similar to that of many of the folks in Strongfirst. Therefore, I think there are a number of SF programs that could be beneficial for you. That being said, you're strong enough that you run the risk of breaking yourself pretty bad if your technique isn't on point. It's one thing to mess around with 12k snatches, it's another entirely to mess around with 32K snatches (if you're not doing them now, you probably could be soon). I'm not saying your technique is bad, I'm just saying that you haven't mentioned your training, which makes me think that you probably trained yourself with books and the internet. That's not bad,; most of us here (myself included) have done the same, but it's not ideal.

Moving forward, you would be doing yourself a huge favor by getting your techniques checked by an SFG, or at the very least post videos of yourself swinging, pressing, snatching, etc on this forum so you can get some feedback. It's not as good as in person work, but it's way better than nothing. After that, pick a program and run with it. There's a lot of them out there, and they all work. I'm pretty partial to doing strength and conditioning with A+A training. If you don't know what that is, just use the search function on the forum, and you'll get plenty of reading material.
 
Though I don’t row competitively, I do row at a competitive level, frequently pulling sub-6:30 2k times on the erg.

That's very impressive, especially since your height is considered short for a rower. Don't be offended by that as, at 5'8", I'm shorter than you.

I began training with kettlebells only as a supplement to my rowing, but now it’s taken on a life of its own.

Rowing and kettlebells go together. I am the opposite of you: I own a rower to supplement my kettlebell training. My 2K is very sad.

You ask an interesting question about whether you can make further improvements in your rowing. I don't know. Your 2K time is clearly at a very high level. You may be very well be at a point of diminishing returns.

If I may be so bold, have you considered trying kettlebell sport? You clearly have the endurance for it. You could begin by trying BOLT competitions (just Google BOLT kettlebell). BOLT competitions are "friendlier" in that you are allowed to set the kettlebell down at any point in your set and you can switch hands as many times as you like. Yes, I'm purposely and blatantly trying to recruit you for the sport.
 
There can be no argument made against moving up in weight when one can. I wholly expect to move up from S&S with the 32kg to S&S with the 40kg and eventually with the 48kg, beyond that it seems is terrifically rare. Progress is part naturally getting stronger with the same weight and wanting a new challenge, and part pushing yourself to take on the new challenge. But, moving up in weight too fast means you need more rests between sets and even (horrors!) more days off to rest and recover, which harm your cardio and mobility goals even if you might progress in raw strength.

Actually, having to move up in weight is a burden brought on by the lighter weight not giving you enough exercise. The 24kg bell is great for presses, but is a joke-toy for swings and getups for me. Anything less than 32kg is a waste of my time for those two exercises.
 
Wow, this post kind of blew up. I was expecting two, maybe three responses at most, I’m glad to see this is a (very) active forum.

@Snowman Yeah, I’m self taught, though. I use a video camera and large mirrors to keep an eye on my technique (also works wonders when training dogs). When I get to the point of having regularly scheduled free time again, I may see if there’s a good SFG or RKC around Kansas City. But that’s probably a few months off.

@Anna C Thanks I’ll definitely check out that podcast. The way I usually train is alternating a full kettlebell routine and running/rowing work every other day, five-six days a week.

@MikeTheBear I’m not offended at all, I actually find it kind of mind-blowing that the average heavyweight rower is now something like 6’4” - which seems excessive. I chalk up my speed to being naturally built like a t-rex, with lots of leg muscle, but not so much up top. So, I’m constantly playing catch-up with my upper body work.
 
@Brian
Please forgive all my questions about rowing. Do you row indoors like on a Concept II or equivalent, or do you row outdoors in a rowing shell? Or both?
Thanks
 
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