Other/Mixed Training/diet and brain effects

[Bret S.]

This thread I opened to discuss any suspected training related or training/diet related anomalies people have encountered. The following are posts copied from another thread..

@Anna C said:
"Oddly, a remarkedly decreased RHR can indicate overtraining. In fact, in my understanding (which isn't expert... just what I've come to learn over the years of studying both endurance training and resistance training), actual overtraining is an endurance training phenomenon that 1) rarely occurs, and 2) only occurs with endurance training"

My reply to Anna,
"Anna I have something strange to report and couldn't figure it out until I read your words above. As you know I've been doing AC's snatch plan along with lots of LED work thrown in.
So two big changes have just occurred in my life..

1. My daughter is moving 2 hrs North of where I am, she is the last one to move as she was going to college locally. Now all 3 of my kids have left town along with my ex wife.
2. I've been doing several hrs of LED work walking and rowing for the last few weeks. This is something I'm not used to doing in high volume.

Before I had a family I would have bouts of despair and or depression on occasion up until age 35 or so and then they vanished, I had found my purpose and it was being a family man. That became my identity as I knew in my heart it would. I had no symptoms of anything for decades.
Now suddenly in the last week or so I got hit with a horrible bout of despair, I know my daughter leaving helped trigger it but honestly I've been through much worse in the last few years. I knew it was different this time and very powerful.
Luckily I could still train, that's my happy place, but I could not for the life of me figure out what changed so much with my brain. Then I read what you said and it clicked, too much LED too soon caused something to change chemically in my brain."

Update: Mon morning I felt 100% back to normal

Then @Fred64 said:

"Hey @Brett S that is a very good question....
I've never suffered from despair or anxiety (though I have close family members who have) but in a similar vein I have to admit that I started running into injury problems starting with a calf strain last July through a period when I was under major & prolonged stress at work.. on reflection I should have eased right back on my training until the period of work pressure passed. So, the overtraining and hormone storm was probably a manifestation of unhealthy general stress levels compounded by overtraining.

There was also extreme background stress (family that time) in 2016 for a six week period leading up to when injured my back and spinal surgery.. so the big life lesson for me is having the self awareness to significantly reduce training load (probably needs to be by 50% or more) when background stress levels are high (be they work, family, life change, etc)..

I know @aciampa is a big believer in managing stress as a whole and I have taken on board a number of things he has recommended to other folks, for example daily breathing practice.

The best advice I can give would be to drop your training load by 50% for a few weeks and observe the effects...

(pretty sure I'm quoting Maffetone...)"

My reply:
"That's good advice, in the past 3 weeks I've doubled my training hours adding LED work, namely walking 12 to 14 miles/wk plus 2 hour long rowing sessions each week. I felt fine yesterday and today, back to normal and I even walked around 5 miles yesterday after 16 snatch repeats.
Today was 36 repeats snatching, my heart rate was very normal and recovering nicely for the session. I'm going to keep strength work to a minimum this week and cut LED work down too.
I think I shocked my body, too much LED too soon, and it hit me on the 3rd week which I believe is the usual time for it to happen. It was a mistake to not account for the cost of the additional work thinking of it as pure 'recovery'. As usual the poison is in the dose so it seems.

I am really enjoying the LED, it's lowering my stress level and bringing out more calm feelings, I'm especially enjoying the walks at the bayshore with the fresh sea breeze. It's very refreshing and pleasant. I've also dropped 2-3 lbs body fat, not that I was trying but with the same diet the calories burned had to come from somewhere.

Edit: I haven't ruled out a B12/folate connection. Sat night I had 1 lb of ground beef covered with grilled onions, peppers and carrots. I was craving beef.."

 

[North Coast Miller]

When I pick up intensity following a period of easy training I become very aggressive for a week or two. This seems to moderate after a few weeks.

 

[Bret S.]

When I pick up intensity following a period of easy training I become very aggressive for a week or two. This seems to moderate after a few weeks.

I've noticed this too, maybe an uptick in testosterone as a physiological response? Harald Motz pointed out in another thread the fact that I'm snatching heavier than I'm used to in the A+A format.
It seems easier than it is on the body even though recovery is better/faster than glycolytic training. That coupled with a literal doubling of training hours in the last few weeks with the addition of 5 days LED per week it's no wonder I got hammered with a brain/body reaction.
I can't help but think there's a depletion of something causing the emotional/hormonal reaction to a big change in training stimulus. In my case this depletion (if it was one) sorted itself out in a few days.

The connection possibilities (just fishing here):
1. folate/B12
2. dopamine
3. accumulation of waste products being filtered from the body after a liver overload
4. depletion of Vitamin C

Not really sure where to look but this is important for me to figure out as there may be a connection here with what my son is going through. 16 yo apathy/depression..
I felt momentarily what he's going through every day and it's breaking my heart, it's powerful and scary to feel such strong mental phenomena.

 

[North Coast Miller]

You'd almost have to recreate the conditions to see if the effect is repeatable. I'm going to guess it might be tough to pull off as it can have many triggers. Inflammation is high on the list but is usually only trouble if chronic.

Normally when I'm feeling low - and this time of year I begin to feel the seasonal depression - I find increasing my volume and intensity makes me feel better and will actually "crave" it over heavier load/more structured sessions.

Metcons - short rest, less weight, compound movements, lots of sweat, relatively short duration.

 

[rickyw]

I notice when I get too much kettlebell training or running going that I just run out of gas and get generally tired and irritable. It doesn’t have to just be LED for me. Lifts that stress the neuro metabolism too heavily will get me. I have to decrease weight or volume, then I start to feel better.

But I have a lot of life stuff going on. Being a young dad and provider can take its toll.

 

[Bret S.]

You'd almost have to recreate the conditions to see if the effect is repeatable. I'm going to guess it might be tough to pull off as it can have many triggers. Inflammation is high on the list but is usually only trouble if chronic.

Normally when I'm feeling low - and this time of year I begin to feel the seasonal depression - I find increasing my volume and intensity makes me feel better and will actually "crave" it over heavier load/more structured sessions.

Metcons - short rest, less weight, compound movements, lots of sweat, relatively short duration.

Blues are a thing that comes and goes without too much notice from me, I kind of look at as 'just life' but the thing I got hit with was just paralyzing.
My girl and I went to dinner Sat night to a higher end restaurant as a planned special occasion, while driving I could hardly speak, she said she was going to cry as she projected onto herself my pain. I told her it had nothing to do with her so we were good (enough).
At the restaurant I ordered a pound of beef with some veggies on top and a huge russet potato. We also had a strong vodka soda each. I started to feel more human after the drink and felt much better after eating the beef and potato. Maybe it was as simple as glycogen depletion, I get very hungry after LED stuff. Another thing is that it started on Fri somewhat and built hard into Saturday.

I notice when I get too much kettlebell training or running going that I just run out of gas and get irritable. It doesn’t have to just be LED for me. Lifts that stress the neuro metabolism too heavily will get me. I have to decrease weight or volume, then I start to feel better.

But I have a lot of life stuff going on. Being a young dad and provider can take its toll.

This is another stressor, heavy A+A snatching comes with a price tag. I've been there with the family and young kid factor, making money for me has been with my hands, if I'm not bleeding I'm not earning.
Others have said they become irritable after longer runs and it lasts for a couple of days.

So many questions.. So few answers..

 

[rickyw]

This is another stressor, heavy A+A snatching comes with a price tag. I've been there with the family and young kid factor, making money for me has been with my hands, if I'm not bleeding I'm not earning.
Others have said they become irritable after longer runs and it lasts for a couple of days.

So many questions.. So few answers..

I will become irritable and tired after a long endurance event if I am not well trained for it as well. What I like about watching @Harald Motz 's training over the last few years is how zen he is about things. He seems to rarely push the boundaries in his training. He just lets things happen gradually, but they do happen.

The alternative field may call it "adrenal fatigue"-and I believe in certain instances this has merit. Personally I think it is more involved than that. I like what Al has talked about-the biological bank account. We only have so much capacity to draw on, and different factors (mental, emotional, physical, etc) will make withdrawals. I have found if I am emotionally drained then I am physically more exhausted. My training can either put money back in the biological account (if I am wise in my dose and volume), or take it out. Finding things that rejuvenate me fill the account. A long hunting trip where I hardly see another human will fill up the account, even if I sleep less. Getting out and doing something that you enjoy, other than training, can fill the account. So I have to ask myself, "am I finding time to do things that are rejuvenating to me?". A+A training can put money in my account, unless I get greedy.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I find if I push it and am fortifying myself with good food I do alright. Is when I make changes and don't account for it I feel wiped. Generally I feel better when I train hard as long as I get sufficient downtime.
Emotionally I try not to let my mood effect my training. Being a parent, working blue collar is all plenty of stress, I try to be mindful of my attitude. Have always been a moody SOB, so even keel around the kids is important.
Every now and then I have to just bite down for a few as I know its just my head and temporary. The seasonal stuff hits me harder every year, daylight savings positively crushes me.

 

[rickyw]

@North Coast Miller , the individual variations are interesting. Have you tried a sun lamp in the winter? I use a 10000 lux sun light up here in Fairbanks in the morning during the winter-big help.

 

[Bret S.]

I will become irritable and tired after a long endurance event if I am not well trained for it as well. What I like about watching @Harald Motz 's training over the last few years is how zen he is about things. He seems to rarely push the boundaries in his training. He just lets things happen gradually, but they do happen.

The alternative field may call it "adrenal fatigue"-and I believe in certain instances this has merit. Personally I think it is more involved than that. I like what Al has talked about-the biological bank account. We only have so much capacity to draw on, and different factors (mental, emotional, physical, etc) will make withdrawals. I have found if I am emotionally drained then I am physically more exhausted. My training can either put money back in the biological account (if I am wise in my dose and volume), or take it out. Finding things that rejuvenate me fill the account. A long hunting trip where I hardly see another human will fill up the account, even if I sleep less. Getting out and doing something that you enjoy, other than training, can fill the account. So I have to ask myself, "am I finding time to do things that are rejuvenating to me?". A+A training can put money in my account, unless I get greedy.

I like Harald alot, he has such a great attitude and he does have a nice zen method going.

I think I started a new program from top to bottom and have to be careful what I do going forward. The emotional aspect of life has been weighing on me as well. I'm dialing back to bare bones stuff until get stable.
Al is right as usual.

 

[Bret S.]

I find if I push it and am fortifying myself with good food I do alright. Is when I make changes and don't account for it I feel wiped. Generally I feel better when I train hard as long as I get sufficient downtime.
Emotionally I try not to let my mood effect my training. Being a parent, working blue collar is all plenty of stress, I try to be mindful of my attitude. Have always been a moody SOB, so even keel around the kids is important.
Every now and then I have to just bite down for a few as I know its just my head and temporary. The seasonal stuff hits me harder every year, daylight savings positively crushes me.

My girl has to rise at 3:15 for work, usually I can get back to sleep, if I can't I'm dragging all day, luckily it's not too often. I do have more stress than usual lately, sometimes it shows up.
Seasonal change is another factor as well. My ears ring 24/7 and become louder when things get complicated. It's kind of like a stress meter.

 

[Stuart Elliott]

+1 for @Harald Motz approach. Following his training approach I've learnt to let my training ride with life's daily punches. I have my plan, but if life gets in the way and I have to do less sets or move it to tomorrow so be it. On the flip side some days I can do more. Im at peace with this.

 

[Harald Motz]

I have my plan, but if life gets in the way and I have to do less sets or move it to tomorrow so be it. On the flip side some days I can do more. Im at peace with this.

that is tactical periodization.

from S&S I learned among many other thins a pull and a press, a ballistic and a grind, from A+A among many other things to repeat and from sitting upright on a cushion that it is good for nothing. I trust in the things I practice and believe in accumulating and synergistic effects.

 

[Al Ciampa]

@Bret S. In my opinion, you trying to shoot fish, and they’re not in a barrel. And your rifle might not even have a round chambered.

Training aside for a second (although you did recently increase variables), I’d be looking at those recurring products you use that have any degree of any suspect: wheat/grain, dairy, additives, preservatives, seed oils, alcohol, caffiene, simple sugars, deodorants, soaps, etc. It’s truly a long list.

With stress-related mental & physical dysfunction, there is far more than the straw that broke the camel’s back.

 

[Bret S.]

@Bret S. In my opinion, you trying to shoot fish, and they’re not in a barrel. And your rifle might not even have a round chambered.

Training aside for a second (although you did recently increase variables), I’d be looking at those recurring products you use that have any degree of any suspect: wheat/grain, dairy, additives, preservatives, seed oils, alcohol, caffiene, simple sugars, deodorants, soaps, etc. It’s truly a long list.

With stress-related mental & physical dysfunction, there is far more than the straw that broke the camel’s back.

Thanks Al for your input on this. Fortunately, (or unfortunately depending on how you look at it), I live a pretty boring life in the sense of repeated behavior. I thought about this stuff as well trying to pinpoint anything I've done or eaten out of the norm lately and have come up blank.
To give an idea I eat 4 eggs with oatmeal, coconut oil and blueberries for 1st meal 6 days/wk and fast for 16 hrs minimum on the same days. Two cups coffee in the AM with a some half-n-half and one more cup in the afternoon. Usually no lunch or hummus and mixed nuts if I need it, dinner is protein, veg and sometimes a little carbs like brown rice or sweet potato. No snacks or an occasional Costco protein bar if I feel flat.
I avoid sugar and sugar alcohols, eat out of glass or metal containers and do my best to avoid xenoestrogens. The only bread I eat is Ezekiel on occasion and rye with an omelette on Sun, sometime it's a burrito with egg, potato and cheese.
Again, boring repeatable diet and habits in general.

My soap is natural, shampoo and deoderant suck (need to get natural stuff) laundry detergent sucks as well.. No recent changes though.

I was referred to an MD in the area who specializes in naturopathic medicine, he has a nominal monthly fee structure and lab discounts are paid through him for better pricing. He acts as more of a consultant so I'm thinking of ringing him up.

Right now I'm not steady with supplements as much as usual. I take a Costco multi-vitamin, 2 1/2 grams Vitamin C, magnesium, straight nicotinic acid, Vitamin D, krill oil and just adding back nutritional yeast. I'm thinking of adding a B complex and Ashwaganda root powder. I'm also considering going back to MSM, I've taken up to 6 grams daily in the past with great results, especially in the joints.
Heavy metal detox has been on my mind as well.

The big change in the last months is stress, family and financial/future type concerns. I'm looking hard at getting away from construction work and it's weighing heavily on my mind. I literally have to force myself to work, this is also weighing on my relationship which in turn increases stress. I'm caught up in a vicious cycle right now and need to find relief.

Edit: also on the radar is gut flora, and I'm thinking the episode has a possible simple explanation of under eating for the workload

 

[Tuebor]

I think more than the variable in training and what you eat your depression has to do with the meaning of life shift/void.

You stated in the opening message, kids and ex are all gone. You identified yourself as a family man. Your identity, task and purpose are in a stalemate of sorts.

Sure this and that's help lead to stress and depression but by the numbers I would say a vast majority of individuals deal and continue to deal with problems. Some more successful than others, but even the successful have issues.

Put on your war face and find the next hill to climb. Your certainly not alone in your struggles and there is no magic pill that makes everything better.

Maybe training makes you depressed, but without training you would be a wreck too. Maybe your diet sucks, but you have been eating like you have for years and look healthy.... your certainly not a glutton. Whatever your symptoms know that most men I know deal with the same s*** your dealing with. And most stay unsuccessful in dealing with the symptoms till they find an ideal that is bigger than them, find a purpose more important than their life to strive for.... which is increasingly difficult in modern western age.

 

[Bret S.]

I think more than the variable in training and what you eat your depression has to do with the meaning of life shift/void.

You stated in the opening message, kids and ex are all gone. You identified yourself as a family man. Your identity, task and purpose are in a stalemate of sorts.

Put on your war face and find the next hill to climb.

most stay unsuccessful in dealing with the symptoms till they find an ideal that is bigger than them, find a purpose more important than their life to strive for

Good points all.. This cuts right to the crux of the matter. I am a mere shell of my former self in many ways. This has been known by me and weighing heavily on my mind for some time now.
I've always been of strong mind, body and spirit. I will find a new path and escape this limbo.

 

[Ryan T]

@Bret S. I'm a fairly emotional guy in the sense that I'm OK with letting it out when it's there. I teared up reading your openning post. I've got nothing new to add to the excellent advice above. When I was under-rested (folks debate the phrase overtrained ), I became a mess. I couldn't sleep, I was very irritable and too emotional.

I think training could be outward of expression on your inner condition. But it's also circular, because the external training can also affect your inward condition as well. Complex stuff to be sure.

For what it's worth brother, you've got a community of people here that want the best for you and as you can see, want to come to your aid when we can. Hang in there. In a former life, I was a social worker for many years and happy to listen.

 

[Ryan T]

I will find a new path and escape this limbo.

Don't remember where I hear this, but the only over is through.

I also think we adapt to our best when we recognize that when we go through trials we are not getting over things and returning to a previous state. I think that we come through things, always changed with the capacity of a greater, new normal.

 

[Bret S.]

@Bret S. I'm a fairly emotional guy in the sense that I'm OK with letting it out when it's there. I teared up reading your openning post. I've got nothing new to add to the excellent advice above. When I was under-rested (folks debate the phrase overtrained ), I became a mess. I couldn't sleep, I was very irritable and too emotional.

I think training could be outward of expression on your inner condition. But it's also circular, because the external training can also affect your inward condition as well. Complex stuff to be sure.

For what it's worth brother, you've got a community of people here that want the best for you and as you can see, want to come to your aid when we can. Hang in there. In a former life, I was a social worker for many years and happy to listen.

Don't remember where I hear this, but the only over is through.

I also think we adapt to our best when we recognize that when we go through trials we are not getting over things and returning to a previous state. I think that we come through things, always changed with the capacity of a greater, new normal.

Thanks Ryan, I really appreciate your kind words. I may be on to something regarding cause/effect of this whole episode. It's too early to say right now but I'll report as things become more clear.