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Other/Mixed Training for Longevity

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

paules

Level 6 Valued Member
In Andy Galpin’s recent podcast with Peter Attia he states:

“The atrophy of fast-twitch fibers is the almost exclusively the problem with aging and muscle.”​

peterattiamd.com

#239 ‒ The science of strength, muscle, and training for longevity | Andy Galpin, Ph.D. (PART I) - Peter Attia

“The atrophy of fast-twitch fibers is almost exclusively the problem with aging and muscle.” —Andy Galpin
peterattiamd.com peterattiamd.com

Having listened to this podcast I re-read the Quick and the Dead where Pavel states:

“Once you are strong—even kind of strong—consider shifting your focus to power.”

“Beefing up one’s mitochondria and fast-twitch fibers with power training is a great prescription for turning back the clock.”

— The Quick and the Dead: Total Training for the Advanced Minimalist by Pavel Tsatsouline

Attia also prescribes Zone 2 (and Zone 5) training for longevity:


My question then is, if healthy ageing is the goal, would a training program focused on power and Zone 2 be a good prescription? For example, alternating days of A+A snatches and Zone 2. Thanks!
 
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A great question.
Train fast or train heavy seems to be the course.
Another take on this topic is in Barbell Prescription: training for life over 40. They preach barbells, high intensity (load) and low volume.

I think an additional bonus question would be: how to train, and still spare your legiments, joints and tendons. Because - it does not matter how strong your bicep is. If a tendon gets inflamed - you are done. If your elbow hurts - same thing.

So yeah: how to train type 2 fibers without getting injured?
 
paules said:
In Andy Galpin’s recent podcast with Peter Attia he states:

“The atrophy of fast-twitch fibers is the almost exclusively the problem with aging and muscle.”​

peterattiamd.com

#239 ‒ The science of strength, muscle, and training for longevity | Andy Galpin, Ph.D. (PART I) - Peter Attia

“The atrophy of fast-twitch fibers is almost exclusively the problem with aging and muscle.” —Andy Galpin
peterattiamd.com peterattiamd.com

Having listened to this podcast I re-read the Quick and the Dead where Pavel states:

“Once you are strong—even kind of strong—consider shifting your focus to power.”

“Beefing up one’s mitochondria and fast-twitch fibers with power training is a great prescription for turning back the clock.”

— The Quick and the Dead: Total Training for the Advanced Minimalist by Pavel Tsatsouline

Attia also prescribes Zone 2 (and Zone 5) training for longevity:


My question then is, if healthy ageing is the goal, would a training program focused on power and Zone 2 be a good prescription? For example, alternating days of A+A snatches and Zone 2. Thanks!
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Yes, those are great, but I wouldn't limit myself to them.
 
Pavel.Kosenkov said:
A great question.
Train fast or train heavy seems to be the course.
Another take on this topic is in Barbell Prescription: training for life over 40. They preach barbells, high intensity (load) and low volume.

I think an additional bonus question would be: how to train, and still spare your legiments, joints and tendons. Because - it does not matter how strong your bicep is. If a tendon gets inflamed - you are done. If your elbow hurts - same thing.

So yeah: how to train type 2 fibers without getting injured?
Click to expand...
In the Galpin-Attia podcast, Galpin answers your question/s in the last 30-40 minutes when going over a hypothetical 3 day split for a 50 year old male.
 
oab said:
Traiing for longevity goes wider than physical activity, in my mind. It entails consideration of the whole human response 24 hours a day etc.
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I agree. My question could have been clearer, it was just relating to the physical training component. And nor was my question intended to imply that power and Z2 would be the only physical activity you would do.
 
The problem with these answers is that they need long term studies and its very complicated to normalize a huge amount of people to do this and even then there might be a ton of factors that could affect the results..

Anyway here in this forum we have users above 60+ with good strenght, mobility, vitality and overall health so we should ask them their routines and diets to shed some light, in order to mix theory with actual long term proven results. @Steve Freides is one of them!
 
I could just be boring, but if power was an important variable to train, I would likely train it via sprints, jumps, and throws. In a program you could divide your training day into 3 sections - Power, Strength, Accessory/Conditioning. Conjugate that with some cardio of choice throughout the week. This keeps you "practicing" expressing power, builds strength (necessary for power production), and then adds some hypertrophy and/or conditioning. If you do that 3 days a week and alternate it with easy cardio, you're going to be pretty well rounded.
 
paules said:
My question then is, if healthy ageing is the goal, would a training program focused on power and Zone 2 be a good prescription? For example, alternating days of A+A snatches and Zone 2. Thanks!
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I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that power is superior to strength training for this purpose.

Because:

--General strength training also stimulates fast twitch
--Power training isn't very good for hypertrophy

[Power training is so ineffective at stimulating hypertrophy that weightlifters who want to add mass will often do separate hypertrophy blocks]

Therefore, it may be that training in the strength-hypertrophy range is superior to power training for anti-aging due to the ability to stimulate more type II growth.
 
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Eyetic said:
The problem with these answers is that they need long term studies and its very complicated to normalize a huge amount of people to do this and even then there might be a ton of factors that could affect the results..
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Exactly.

As a weightlifter, I train power all the time, and I am not confident that it is superior to other forms of resistance training when it comes to anti-aging.

Because I know from personal experience that it's sub optimal for hypertrophy.

I'd want to see studies.

[Full disclosure: My training is mostly power and Zone 2, with some Zone 5 and some strength + hypertrophy]
 
watchnerd said:
Exactly.

As a weightlifter, I train power all the time, and I am not confident that it is superior to other forms of resistance training when it comes to anti-aging.

Because I know from personal experience that it's sub optimal for hypertrophy.

I'd want to see studies.

[Full disclosure: My training is mostly power and Zone 2, with some Zone 5 and some strength + hypertrophy]
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I thought you are running long cycles of hypertrophy and strength. Is your power training olympic lifts which you train as a skill all around the year?
 
Ege said:
I thought you are running long cycles of hypertrophy and strength. Is your power training olympic lifts which you train as a skill all around the year?
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I train the Olympic lifts all year round.

The difference by season is whether I'm training them 1x-2x a week (like I do in a strength or hypertrophy block for the off-season) or 4x a week (as I'm doing now, in-season).

In-season training for me is January - May, so for 5 months of the year I'm training the Olympic lifts 4x week, which includes squats, too, but very little hypertrophy. And the power to strength work ratio is about 3:1 in-season.

Dedicated hypertrophy work is a 3 month block, but that's only 25% of the year (and still includes Olympic lifts a minimum of once a week); when I'm in-season, hypertrophy work is limited to 15 min at the end of 90-120 min weightlifting practice sessions.

If you add up the volume across the year, I do a lot more power work than strength work, and a lot more strength work than hypertrophy work.
 
paules said:
My question then is, if healthy ageing is the goal, would a training program focused on power and Zone 2 be a good prescription? For example, alternating days of A+A snatches and Zone 2. Thanks!
Click to expand...

watchnerd said:
As a weightlifter, I train power all the time, and I am not confident that it is superior to other forms of resistance training when it comes to anti-aging.

Because I know from personal experience that it's sub optimal for hypertrophy.
Click to expand...

IMHO, there's a reason that the deadlift is the lift of choice in Power To The People! - it is something that requires minimal equipment, and the skill requirements are lower for strength training than for power training. (Quickness can be, based on both what I've read and my experience as a trainer, a tough attribute to improve. Power is, after all, quickness with weights.) Powerlifting (or other strength training focused on compound movements and low-rep strength) + cardio is the prescription for aging well that can applied most broadly and easily across a large and general population.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
IMHO, there's a reason that the deadlift is the lift of choice in Power To The People! - it is something that requires minimal equipment, and the skill requirements are lower for strength training than for power training. (Quickness can be, based on both what I've read and my experience as a trainer, a tough attribute to improve. Power is, after all, quickness with weights.) Powerlifting (or other strength training focused on compound movements and low-rep strength) + cardio is the prescription for aging well that can applied most broadly and easily across a large and general population.

-S-
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Even if skill isn't an issue (you can always do plyometrics or simple exercises like weighted jump squats), I haven't seen data that says power training is superior to just regular strength training when it comes to anti-aging.

Note: I'm not saying it's not useful or beneficial to have *some* power training.
 
Especially if you don't have specific competitive athletic or occupational needs, I wouldn't worry about any of this fiber type business. Just train for what you want to get better at, what makes you feel good, and what you enjoy.

If you want to get better at pressing, practice pressing. If you want to get better at snatching, practice snatching. If you enjoy clubbell swinging (like I do), practice club swinging. If OS resets (or whatever similar practice) help you feel better then do those. If easy cardio makes you feel better and enables you to recover easier from other training (as it does for me), then do that.

[In fairness, the cardio thing is a little bit of an exception for me in that part of why I do it is the general idea that it's good for heart health in a way that my other training doesn't necessarily address. So my reason for doing it is as much because I think it's good for me as because it's something I really enjoy and want to get better at.]

For the most part, I look at training from a black box, stimulus and response, perspective. I try not to get caught up in the physiology. It's like the line from Taleb that Pavel is fond of quoting:
We are built to be dupes for theories. But theories come and go; experience stays. Explanations change all the time, and have changed all the time in history (because of causal opacity, the invisibility of causes) with people involved in the incremental development of ideas thinking they always had a definitive theory; experience remains constant.
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This is speaking as a 58 year-old lifelong basketball player with all the wear and tear that goes with that, who did my RKC certification (with Pavel) when I was 44, and has decades of training and athletic history.
 
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