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Other/Mixed Training for Longevity

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
There is a behavioral problem with "as often as you can".

I've seen people interpret that to mean "with as few days off as possible", which isn't good.

Muscles grow during recovery, not in the gym.
Thanks. This is very good correction/description.
 
… and I'm curious if you have any experience or thoughts using density clusters with weightlifting lifts for hypertrophy?
In my experience with clusters, they worked but the volume had to be somewhat greater than with straight sets, not a ton. Movement speed on average HAD to be higher than I would normally go, concentric and eccentric.

Using them for hypertrophy I ran my last set of clusters to tech failure, meaning I was 90% certain I could not get another full rep count (1,3,5, whatever the cluster count was for that lift). And then I had to break up my session in half and increase training frequency since my per exercise volume was that little bit too much.

My best all around hypertrophy block was done by using decreased volume with one easy lead in set, one very heavy set at half my max reps (normally 2 reps with a 4 rep max load), and a final set with a 6-10 rep max finished off with Rest/Pause or Drop Sets depending if it was a push or pull. Very much a simple DeLorme aproach. This was done 3x per week with zero supplemental cardio, conditioning etc.
 
I like the phase "technique pollution"

The idea behind clusters is to reduce technique pollution. By density, I only mean getting the same volume in the same time. For weightlifting could a person do singles with enough rest to have good technique but short enough rest to signal hypertrophy? I guess it would basically be like the C&J best training method article?
You’d be training under the large shadow of Mike Mentzer with his myo-reps. Good for an advanced trainee perhaps, maybe not so good for the aspiring.
 
To minimize any speed/power losses during a hypertrophy cycle.

I solve that by training the competition lifts once a week in a hypertrophy block, using usual rest methods.

It's enough for maintenance and after 5 months of competition prep doing them 4x a week, and then peaking for competition, it gives me a break.

(I do my hypertrophy / bodybuilding block right when competition ends)
 
But the data now is that there really isn't a no-man's land.

Anything in the 5-30 rep range that is driven to within 2 reps or so of failure can stimulate hypertrophy.
is there not a no-man's-land between (1)training for peak bar speed at a submaximal weight, and (2)training for max weight at the slowest bar speed for eliciting changes to Type 2 Fibers?

Kinda heavy but not too slow, kinda fast but a little too heavy?

I wasn't intending to appeal to a rep range, specifically, but to a modality that achieves a certain tension stimulus.
 
is there not a no-man's-land between (1)training for peak bar speed at a submaximal weight, and (2)training for max weight at the slowest bar speed for eliciting changes to Type 2 Fibers?

Kinda heavy but not too slow, kinda fast but a little too heavy?

I wasn't intending to appeal to a rep range, specifically, but to a modality that achieves a certain tension stimulus.

I haven't seen any data that supports that when it comes to hypertrophy.

The data seems to indicate that getting hard sets in (hard being defined as close to failure) is what matters for hypertrophy, and that applies from heavy / low 5 reps all the way up to light / high 30 reps.

In other words, for hypertrophy you can also train at medium bar speed / medium tempo at medium heavy weights, as long as you do enough reps to get close to failure.
 
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is there not a no-man's-land between (1)training for peak bar speed at a submaximal weight, and (2)training for max weight at the slowest bar speed for eliciting changes to Type 2 Fibers?

Kinda heavy but not too slow, kinda fast but a little too heavy?

I wasn't intending to appeal to a rep range, specifically, but to a modality that achieves a certain tension stimulus.
When I think fast twitch I tend to think Fast.
 
is there not a no-man's-land between (1)training for peak bar speed at a submaximal weight, and (2)training for max weight at the slowest bar speed for eliciting changes to Type 2 Fibers?
There are lots of ways to lift weights, but I don't think moving medium-to-heavy weights intentionally slower is one of them. Fast with light weights is the training to recruit what you need to make heavy weights move at all. As the weight gets heavier, the bar speed will slow down somewhat. (I don't know if you were suggesting intentionally slowing down but that's the point I wanted to make.)

OTOH, some assistance exercises offer the most benefit when performed slowly and carefully even though you could do them faster.

-S-
 
One can be loaded with type 2 fiber and not be “fast”. It won’t happen without being addressed specifically.
Agreed.
Based on this longevity thread, most of my clients over the years have been 40-65years old.
General goal, for Them, at Their level, get them stronger, with a motor, able to move with some speed, through a full range of motion.
 
I don't know if you were suggesting intentionally slowing down but that's the point I wanted to make
I meant to refer to dealing in weights which will offer an inherent amount of slowing.

although I do ponder a bit on this passage from PttP. I rarely deadlift with weights that take this many seconds to lock out.

I suppose this may speak to how early I am in my strength journey, but relative to my currently acheieved max, 365, BW~245, I only take a second or so to lockout with anything under or at 80%. once i get to 85-90% 1RM then i sense the slowdown, that i am not the master of the bar, and i'll find some duration over 2 seconds or so, maybe 3-5 seconds at a 95% max attempt or a 1RM test. Again, this may speak to how young i am in learning to develop tension, but this kind of pace seems largely intentional to my current abilities with weights that currently fit in my 65% to 85% 1RM weights.

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I do shy away from any jerking, i try to maximize the sensations of pressure in my feet and in my grip before lifting off and when I do lift off, I only employ maximal exertions, to press as hard as i can, no matter the weight.

I'm thinking more about this as i approach the end of my current kettlebell cycle and turn back towards the barbell.
 
I meant to refer to dealing in weights which will offer an inherent amount of slowing.

although I do ponder a bit on this passage from PttP. I rarely deadlift with weights that take this many seconds to lock out.

I suppose this may speak to how early I am in my strength journey, but relative to my currently acheieved max, 365, BW~245, I only take a second or so to lockout with anything under or at 80%. once i get to 85-90% 1RM then i sense the slowdown, that i am not the master of the bar, and i'll find some duration over 2 seconds or so, maybe 3-5 seconds at a 95% max attempt or a 1RM test. Again, this may speak to how young i am in learning to develop tension, but this kind of pace seems largely intentional to my current abilities with weights that currently fit in my 65% to 85% 1RM weights.

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I do shy away from any jerking, i try to maximize the sensations of pressure in my feet and in my grip before lifting off and when I do lift off, I only employ maximal exertions, to press as hard as i can, no matter the weight.

I'm thinking more about this as i approach the end of my current kettlebell cycle and turn back towards the barbell.

Slow tempo is not the only way to drive tension.

The evidence we have now is that hypertrophy mechanisms that were thought to be metabolite driven, are just ways to get to tension.

And tension leads to hypertrophy.
 
The evidence we have now is that hypertrophy mechanisms that were thought to be metabolite driven, are just ways to get to tension.
Theoretically…
So far nobody has found a way to decouple fatigue from the equation however the outcome is explained. If it were only tension, this could be achieved some other way since we know that virtually 100% activation/max levels of tension can be triggered without fatigue.
When the bar is moving sloooowwwwllllllyyyyy during a max effort or PR the lifter is still moving it as fast as he/she can!!
Second best thing to actually driving a load at higher speed. True movement speed just can’t be trained around.
 
Theoretically…
So far nobody has found a way to decouple fatigue from the equation however the outcome is explained. If it were only tension, this could be achieved some other way since we know that virtually 100% activation/max levels of tension can be triggered without fatigue.

But we also lack a known hypertrophy mechanism beyond the mechano-sensor.

Either way, we know slow tempo isn't the only route to hypertrophy.
 
There are lots of ways to lift weights, but I don't think moving medium-to-heavy weights intentionally slower is one of them. Fast with light weights is the training to recruit what you need to make heavy weights move at all. As the weight gets heavier, the bar speed will slow down somewhat. (I don't know if you were suggesting intentionally slowing down but that's the point I wanted to make.)

OTOH, some assistance exercises offer the most benefit when performed slowly and carefully even though you could do them faster.

-S-

My hamstring and spinal erectors DOMS from doing reverse pause snatch pulls on Saturday (from top down, 3 second pause above thigh, 3 second pause below knee, 3 second pause 1 inch above floor, so 11-12 second eccentric total) certainly indicates a lot of disruption was going on.

Granted, I wasn't doing them for the purpose of hypertrophy, but for positional practice.

But it would be nice if some hypertrophy resulted from the suffering. ;)
 
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But we also lack a known hypertrophy mechanism beyond the mechano-sensor.

Either way, we know slow tempo isn't the only route to hypertrophy.
Agreed on point 2.
There are a lot of recent research some of which demonstrated lactate triggered muscle growth using non-tension methods of stimulation (a mild toxin administered to the muscle intraveniously, followed by oral lactate triggered hypertrophy).

What HAS been proven is that metabolite stress by itself doesn’t trigger hypertrophy, but then neither does only tension. Even the frog muscle experiments required extended hang time. For someone to say “ignore metabolite aspect of fatigue and only pay attention to speculative effect on fiber tension as a result thereof” doesn’t sound right.
 
Agreed on point 2.
There are a lot of recent research some of which demonstrated lactate triggered muscle growth using non-tension methods of stimulation (a mild toxin administered to the muscle intraveniously, followed by oral lactate triggered hypertrophy).

What HAS been proven is that metabolite stress by itself doesn’t trigger hypertrophy, but then neither does only tension. Even the frog muscle experiments required extended hang time. For someone to say “ignore metabolite aspect of fatigue and only pay attention to speculative effect on fiber tension as a result thereof” doesn’t sound right.

In practice, I don't ignore it at all, given that I do BFR or other 'pump work' from time to time.

But if someone asks me me if metabolites themselves are prime drivers of hypertrophy (as was the theory proposed for "pump work" for a long time), I have to say I'm not so sure about that.
 
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