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Old Forum Trying to untangle nutrition confusion

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Apologies in advance for the length of this post. I’ve been analysing myself and this is bit of a brain dump of where I am.

I struggle with getting my nutrition right due to:

Cultural / upbringing views on food and love for Indian food (no, its not a real curry without lots of ghee / butter)
Conflicting and confusing information on carbs, grains, dairy
Conflicting and confusing information on fasting, duration of it and frequency of it
Avoiding cooking myself

So, I’ve been trying to follow my own version of eat clean and it hasn’t worked. A lot of slip ups with refined sugar consumption (though I can curtail those quite easily) and daily curries with too much fat. Probably too many carbs.

I recently reviewed this forum and Geoff’s advice in MKM, Confidential Report and KB Express ULTRA (which by the way all brilliantly sum up how one should eat, however I was unable to appreciate, grasp and follow this when I first saw it, perhaps it was too much of a leap for me).

The simple advice of mostly eat protein/fat + veg and eat starches post workout is simple enough on paper but I didn’t know what it means at a practical level and how to adopt it (that and the thought of giving up delicious curries cooked in abundant amounts of butter and rice / bread every day - and getting cooked food without me worrying about it).

In addition to Geoff’s advice, this article on the PN site has *REALLY* helped me:

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/fix-a-broken-diet

Three steps outlined in this article:

Identify and remove nutritional deficiencies

MY ACTION: take vitamins daily and eat vegetables (ideally a lot of them)


Adjust food amount and type

MY ACTION: Assess progress after 3 weeks (27th May) and adjust accordingly


Fine tune the details (not considered as important as first two)

MY ACTION: restrict starches to post workout



Other two articles worth reading, referenced in the above article are:

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/eat-right-for-your-body-type
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/calorie-control-guide

Why this post:

Incase it might help someone else in my situation (I know most people here have their nutrition tuned)
Hoping that putting this on the forum might help me to stick to this style of eating and I can reach out for support if and when needed

A day in life (Monday 11th May):

Breakfast: black coffee x2
Lunch: grilled veg + large grilled white fish
PM: 2 scoops whey shake in milk + a banana + fish oil
Dinner: Heap of green stuff + grilled chicken breasts with peri peri sauce
LOTS of water all day
Two cups of tea

I'm looking for good recipe books with quick meals so I don't get bored of eating the same things, any recommendations would be appreciated. Shredded Chef looks good, might order that.
 
I am with Pavel as far as chicken goes.

Cooking is a craft more than it's a science, IMHO.  Just start, get lots of practice, and you'll figure things out.

-S-

-S-
 
Cool stuff, Faisal.  I am no nutrition expert, but I love learning about what people do and what works for them.  If you are looking for some additional practical advice, as it sounds like that is the kind of stuff you have found best for you, I highly recommend Josh Hillis and Dan John's book Fat Loss Happens on Monday.

Your day in the life eating example looks good.  I'll be curious to see the update in a few weeks.  What kind of methods are you using to assess?  Mirror?  Measurements?  Weight?  Other?
 
I'll second Steve's point on the philosophy of cooking -- even though recipes are written with scientific precision, don't take them seriously. Don't measure. Omit things. Substitute things. Add things. Do it quickly. Do it at every meal (or at least daily). Give yourself permission to make mistakes. Eat them and move on. You'll get better and develop your own style.

Oh, and remember that if you buy it at the grocery, you're going to end up eating it.
 
Thanks Steve & Lsalasl for the advice on cooking, I will bear that in mind, thanks. Thinking about leaving chicken might be a step too complicated at this stage.

Brian, thanks for the recommendation, that book is on my wish list, prefer printed version and delivery is too expensive to the UK. Georgie Fears new book Lean Habits also looks pretty appealing.

In terms of measuring: scale, body fat calliper and going by the feel of my trousers and jeans to start with.
 
Haha, thank you for this post.  You mean there's more than one approach to eating that's healthy and effective?!

FWIW, I went through PN's lean eating program with one of the author's of Josh's book.  I also spent a year working with One By One Nutrition, which is what two of the PN coaches started after leaving PN.  One of them, Georgie, recently released her book Lean Habits, which is a great sister to Josh's book.  The two books together create such a solid foundation.  They engage quite a bit and support each other in Social Media.  The Strength Matters Podcast with Georgie (episode 37) is fantastic and details the essence of her book.

When it comes to fasting, I've really been enjoying the "5:2" or "FastDiet" approach of fasting twice per week.  I tried the Eat Stop Eat approach (two dinner to dinner fasts) after talking about it with someone here on the forum.  5:2 is a better fit for me, and it's been an effective way to finally create the necessary deficit in combination with everything I learned from One By One (PN no longer advocates limiting starches to post-workout FWIW).

The 5:2 approach is, for example, eat dinner on Sunday, a 600-800 cal meal on Monday, eat regularly again starting Tuesday.  You'd do that twice per week.  Having a meal on the fasting day makes it very painless for me.

I too have struggled to get into the necessary deficit, and it can be frustrating.  At one point this year I was maintaining 2100 kcal per day for a month and nothing budged.  As a 210 lb. guy, the internet gurus would tell you that shouldn't happen, but the reality is that everyone is a bit different and sometimes 500 calories per day generality just doesn't do it.  Keep your head up and try your best to be healthy.

BTW, PN also has an e-book on fasting available for free download.  If you search for it, it should come up quickly.  It tends to be a bit dramatic, but you'll be able to see what some of the approaches look like.  The big idea of fasting is that you're creating a big deficit once or twice per week.  Beyond that, the different approaches are almost like decorating your home.  Different approaches connect with different people, and it's a matter of trying them and finding one that clicks for you in a doable and sustainable way.

Good luck!
 
Faisal, I think this is the issue: "I struggle with getting my nutrition right". Right for what purpose? Want to gain size, feed for performance, lose fat, fight off father time, feel better? What do you want to be different than the way things are now?

There are very few things that are "right". While decreasing refined sugars is probably a good idea for everyone, I don't know if it's necessary for everyone. I don't see the point in beating yourself up over something that may not be a problem in the end. Eating clean is a good thing, but I wouldn't say that not eating clean is wrong. You also make an assumption that "folks here have their nutrition tuned". I would say the exact opposite, just based on human nature.

I would approach your journey as: train for the way you want to look/perform and then eat to support that. For example, high endurance folks may do well with high fat/no carb, but strength and power athletes probably wouldn't. It's not an absolute nor the best example perhaps, but food is not just fuel. It ties us culturally and emotionally and affects our hormones and waist lines. If you can eat all that butter, can get away with it, and it makes you feel good, then maybe make a trade somewhere else. for some it may be a problem, but not for you. Make small changes and see how that experiment changes things for you. For me, it was beer. I felt and looked much better after taking it out of my normal routine, but I still drink alcohol in other forms and occasionally I'll have a beer. I just won't think of it as a wrong choice, just not the best choice.
 
Thanks guys for your input. Much appreciated.

@James: I have been following Georgie's work for a little while, think I heard of her from you in a previous post here some time ago. I’ve heard that SM podcast episode you refer to and a few other interviews of Georgie. I’ve subscribed to her knowledge bomb which also gives a glimpse of her book. I’ve read the fasting PDF you mention and I get fasting and it’s various forms and have tried them most over the last 3 years - I prefer generally to skip breakfast and have 2-3 meals between 1pm and 9pm. What you describe of 5:2 isn’t any different from my understanding of Eat Stop Eat, except your fasting day meal is not calorie restricted, you eat a normal meal.

I have been able to lose weight in recent past with calorie restriction but became weak and skinny fat, I went from 85kg to 68kg in just over a year but the stubborn fat didn’t budge. Then I slowly increased it back up and I was 82kg a week ago, without a huge impact on the body fat (I think I increased by about 3%  - for some that might be a big deal).

Regarding PN’s view on not restricting starches to post workout, I read both the articles recently (one saying restrict and the new one saying new research has shown that to be not needed). However in the eating for your body type they clarify that the different body types will tolerate carbs differently, so the net effect for an endomorph like me is that it’s still best to restrict starches to post workout. Whereas I know other people, close friends who needed a lot more starches than I do (both are tall and skinny with a small frame and are always hungry).

@Joe: I agree with your analysis that the terms I have chosen weren’t the best choice, I just didn’t feel the need to bracket my statement with “for me, to achieve goal x” but understand how that can cause confusion. I credit Georgie’s email for pointing out that there is no good food and bad food, it’s a matter of choosing what is best for you at any given time and the best option for you might be to eat your butter or your cookie and move on - so I get that. What I would like to do is get to a decent / ideal plan which I can then supplement with cheats / treats in a more discipled manner to avoid binges.

Like most people, I want to get lean and strong and muscular. I have been focusing on strength for some time and want to get muscular but the stubborn fat really bothers me so want to tackle that from now until end of 19th July. I also want to use this time to build up eating habits that are scalable with some tuning - i.e. get a baseline that works for me and then adjust for cut/bulk/maint. Come July 20th when I plan to focus on hypertrophy program for 12 weeks, I would expect to make minor changes to my day in life example above to achieve that. The mistake I made recently was to go all out during a 4 week hypertrophy with the misconception that it’s bulk phase so everything is fine for me. I gained weight but it was mostly fat.

I think I’m getting there. Thanks for all the wisdom shared on this forum. Please continue to chime in with the gems.

 
 
One thing PN does is re-publish their articles with some frequency, changing the dates.  I've seen certain ones recycled 4-5 times.  That's not bad per se, and a lot of it is helpful, but I think they're just trying to maintain their market presence by always having something to post.  I remember reading the eating for your body type when I was in Lean Eating in 2012.

When I read Eat Stop Eat, it was a dinner to dinner fast twice per week.  The 5:2 approach is not.  It's a longer period, but you have a meal.  I like that :)

Cool that you're following Georgie!
 
+ 1 for Josh Hillis and Dan John's book. It's what you need right now to sort out the misinformation in your head.

ive read every approach, this community showed me over time and practice how to reverse obesity and I now live between 195-205 when before I was 250 from clinical disorders and eating junk constantly.

faisal- drinking coffee and not eating in the morning is a sure fire way to prime you for sugar cravings later in the day. You said you eat too much fat also, yet the day you outlined has almost no substantial fat.

how much do you sleep at night?

What is your current training plan?

instdad of trying to make your body do something you'll find far greater results training for strength, eating when the first signs of hunger appear, and learning what macro ratios are right for YOU.

And buy Fat Loss on Monday..... :)
 
Thanks Zach, I'll grab a copy of Josh's book on kindle for now and give it a go since printed copy is too expensive with the postage to UK.

I haven't noticed coffee leading to sugar cravings (for me), in fact I usually eat sugary stuff when with the family in the evenings more for the sake of it as opposed to addressing a craving.  The fat intake was high, probably very high, but not on my current plan that I started on 6th May and started cooking myself.

I get my 7+ hours sleep most of the nights. I'm following KB Strong with 24s, on the short course at the moment so eat a more on training days.
 
Zach, drinking coffee and not eating in the morning is an approach that has worked for many of us for a number of years.

Faisal, it's good to have a high intake of good fats.  My dinner yesterday included fresh, local, whole milk mozzarella cheese and guacamole, I have heavy cream in my coffee, and I eat homemade nut butter almost every day.  It's the man-made, hydrogenated fats you have to watch out for, IMHO.

-S-

-S-
 
Thanks again Steve, always appreciate your advice. I use fish oil, some peanut butter and do have full fat milk, cheese etc. The yogurt I like happens to be 0% greek but wouldn't avoid the full fat one either.

The high fat I refer to earlier is large quantities of butter used in curries (in addition to the above mentioned items I use). For example, my wife would cook boneless chicken curry with half a block of butter (125 grams) and I can easily eat half or more of that curry with 100g rice (I try and stick to boiled but if it's pilau, that will have additional butter or veg oil).

I just checked details of the particular brand of butter we use and it has 739 calories per 100 grams and 82g fat (52g saturates). So in one sitting I could be getting 550+ calories just from the butter.
 
Butter calories makes my life better. :)

remember that we are all seeking our own balance, not a "balanced diet" that has been created by marketers. Try the book and focus first on the journaling and you'll find over time whether you do best on higher fat/protein or higher carb/protein as an optimal food blend.

Steve- yes some do just fine on caffeine first thing in the morning with nothing else, they would most likely not be reporting the discontent with food decision making that Faisal is seeking answers for.

However when someone is reporting that they struggle with food decisions that's arising From imbalanced chemistry, sugar cravings and excessive consumption, it is a sign of being over ones stress threshold And that much caffeine without food will worsen that cycle.

 

out of curiosity, do you have a significant amount of body fatbto utilize, as in higher than 15%, or are we talking about being frustrated by not having single digit body fat most of the time?
 
the book will be of great help, For starters as you're reading it.... when you eat try to start having a high amount of protein with non-starchy veggies and the fat sources you mentioned. See how litthe starch you need to feel satiated for several days, and when consuming starch use lower GI/ GL starches at the end of meals after getting your protein/fat/veggies. You may be surprised at how little you need to feel satiated for longer periods of time than you are used to.
 
My problem with every "approach" to eating I've seen is that they all oversimplify.  Just like one can't start squatting with 300 lbs. on the bar, there is a progression to becoming - and perhaps I will coin an expression here - a strong eater.

I have yet to read anything on the subject of diet that I find reflects goals, progressions, and regressions just like we have for strength at StrongFirst.  My own approach to eating reflects my particular eating-related "strengths" and "weaknesses."    There need to be principles, there need to be goals, and we need the "one mind, any weapon" approach to eating.  And people need to take responsibility for their own results, and seek out coaching, be it group or individual, as they require in order to safely make progress.

Faisal's original message sounded to me like he was making progress, and my message to him is "keep on doing what you're doing."  He is thinking about how he eats, he's gathering information about what others do and doing what he does more mindfully and, if I read between the lines correctly, he is improving, making progress toward his goals.

One of my personal goals, and one that took me towards the Warrior Diet, was to reduce my dependence on regular feedings.   I have found my own balance - my morning usually starts with water, coffee, and a couple of spoons of homemade nut butter, but I make it a point to vary that from time to time because I don't want to become too used to that, either.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
 
Thanks again chaps for your views and thoughts.

Steve, that's an excellent response from you in terms of having a template with which to approach dietary needs and that is exactly what I'm trying to validate here, just as I validate my training approaches and goals on this forum.

Steve you are correct in reading between the lines, I have been making progress and don't eat junk, I have some weaknesses like not eating veggies but addressing that. In the past it was not enough water, which I fixed over time, then protein needs. Most recent change has been more salads and veggies and cooking more myself.

This thread has helped me in the way I sought to get help. I will stick to the basic template I mentioned as a day in life, evaluate progress after 3 weeks and tune things as I go. I've not felt deprived or hungry in the last 9 days, my jeans are looser, I feel good and training sessions haven't suffered.

 
 
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