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Other/Mixed Two-Four week blocks?

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

Anth

Level 4 Valued Member
Calling all chronic overtrainers!

I was wondering about people's results with block training (outside of the S+S and PTTP thing. I've seen a lot of people do that).
I was thinking of rotating 2-4 week blocks of minimalist training in addition to boxing and Muay Thai. It's very difficult to find a consistant program that helps with progress without getting worn out (It's tough to do a DFW workout even a day or two after sparring). I was thinking something like 2-4 weeks of airdyne workouts, 2-4 weeks of S+S, 2-4 weeks of just carries, 2-4 weeks of OS, maybe throw in a The Giant of DFW once in a while when I have a few slow weeks of MT training. I would plan on working in the airdyne, OS, and maybe even just yoga or something every other time to avoid feeling beat up and tired. I would switch training anytime after the 2 weeks that I start to feel that overtraining set in.

My main goal:
1. To stay in good shape for Muay Thai (to feel strong and conditioned and be able to move well and recover from sparring and hard classes)
2. To make small progress over the course of a year in numbers and body composition.

Some facts about me:
41 years old, 4 kids under 10
Full time job, need to wake up early (it may be under-recovery as opposed to overtraining - my thought is that new programs are usually refreshing)
I've achieved timeless simple, but I inevitably overdo it and lose the ability.
I have a lot of kettlebells and lots of doubles, a sandbag, and an airdyne bike in my garage.
I have about 30 minutes to work out a day (when not training MT).

What are people's results with this training? What is lost when doing this as opposed to a longer, more complex and involved program?

Thanks!
 

Andi-in-BKK

Level 5 Valued Member
I’ve been dealing with something similar with SFG1 prep and 5-6 days a week of BJJ (10-12 hours a week). I really want to add Muay Thai, being that I’m literally living in its Mecca (Bangkok), but it’ll have to wait until after SFG1 in November.

Some things that have helped me: prioritize a sport goal and a strength or cardio goal. Then determine which of those two is the most important. The second most important option, try to get it in when you can, at least 2-3 times a week. I would personally also try for an 8-12 week block to maximize gains from your particular conditioning or strength program. And try to optimize your recovery, sleep (I know it’s tough with kids), diet, and rest days (5 work to 2 rest per week is the magic number for me). I would think the biggest advantage of the longer block is it allows for more specific gains in performance (like a cycling newbie/deconditioned gains program cycle- no need to cut it short if you are still making progress, unless you burn out on a specific movement pattern)

A question for you regarding your Muay Thai: is it a full Thai style MT/boxing program with its own running and conditioning program or more of a western style class format? If you can dictate your MT schedule around a school with a 6-7 day a week schedule, that will make things a lot easier for setting yourself up for consistent recovery.
 

Andi-in-BKK

Level 5 Valued Member
I would also add, you can separate out restorative practices like OS resets and Yoga and practice then continuously, not necessarily in block format. That’ll help your recovery as well.
 

Anth

Level 4 Valued Member
I’ve been dealing with something similar with SFG1 prep and 5-6 days a week of BJJ (10-12 hours a week). I really want to add Muay Thai, being that I’m literally living in its Mecca (Bangkok), but it’ll have to wait until after SFG1 in November.

Some things that have helped me: prioritize a sport goal and a strength or cardio goal. Then determine which of those two is the most important. The second most important option, try to get it in when you can, at least 2-3 times a week. I would personally also try for an 8-12 week block to maximize gains from your particular conditioning or strength program. And try to optimize your recovery, sleep (I know it’s tough with kids), diet, and rest days (5 work to 2 rest per week is the magic number for me). I would think the biggest advantage of the longer block is it allows for more specific gains in performance (like a cycling newbie/deconditioned gains program cycle- no need to cut it short if you are still making progress, unless you burn out on a specific movement pattern)

A question for you regarding your Muay Thai: is it a full Thai style MT/boxing program with its own running and conditioning program or more of a western style class format? If you can dictate your MT schedule around a school with a 6-7 day a week schedule, that will make things a lot easier for setting yourself up for consistent recovery.

It's traditional MT, but it is in America and it's not super intense. For example I get away from home for 2 hours for a class that is fairly brutal then I come home to parent/job duties. I also have a few punching bags at home, so I drill at home. Basically 1-2 day a week of sparring and technique at class (coming home feeling pretty beat up), then 2-3 days of practicing that technique at home.
 

John K

Level 7 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Calling all chronic overtrainers!

I was wondering about people's results with block training (outside of the S+S and PTTP thing. I've seen a lot of people do that).
I was thinking of rotating 2-4 week blocks of minimalist training in addition to boxing and Muay Thai. It's very difficult to find a consistant program that helps with progress without getting worn out (It's tough to do a DFW workout even a day or two after sparring). I was thinking something like 2-4 weeks of airdyne workouts, 2-4 weeks of S+S, 2-4 weeks of just carries, 2-4 weeks of OS, maybe throw in a The Giant of DFW once in a while when I have a few slow weeks of MT training. I would plan on working in the airdyne, OS, and maybe even just yoga or something every other time to avoid feeling beat up and tired. I would switch training anytime after the 2 weeks that I start to feel that overtraining set in.

My main goal:
1. To stay in good shape for Muay Thai (to feel strong and conditioned and be able to move well and recover from sparring and hard classes)
2. To make small progress over the course of a year in numbers and body composition.

Some facts about me:
41 years old, 4 kids under 10
Full time job, need to wake up early (it may be under-recovery as opposed to overtraining - my thought is that new programs are usually refreshing)
I've achieved timeless simple, but I inevitably overdo it and lose the ability.
I have a lot of kettlebells and lots of doubles, a sandbag, and an airdyne bike in my garage.
I have about 30 minutes to work out a day (when not training MT).

What are people's results with this training? What is lost when doing this as opposed to a longer, more complex and involved program?

Thanks!
I would not recommend someone to train like that. I have not had good results with that style of training.

How many times are you able to train a week (excluding your boxing/muay thai)? You said 30 minutes a day when not training MT, but how many days are you able to train per week consistently? What do you enjoy doing?

One option to consider is on days you are feeling tired and rundown from training, doing an easier S&S session or something like Dan John's Humane Burpee, and on days you're feeling more spunky, doing something more "tiring" - cleans, presses, squats, snatches - in any kind of format. This could be something like alternating sets of snatches and pull-ups in like an abbreviated A&A format, or Armor Building Complex (2 cleans + 1 press + 3 squats), or some kind of single or double complex. This way, when you have the energy you can train hard, and when you don't you can still train productively without running yourself into the ground. Track your training, try to progress where you can, but realize you can still be progressing without having to do more reps or more weight or more sets every session.
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
under-recovery as opposed to overtraining...

Terms

1) OverReaching


OverReaching occurs when training is pushed the limit.

It should be part of a good Periodization Training Program in the final week of the cycle.

OverReaching ensure the muscles are stressed. Then allowed to recover, where increases in stregth take place.

Once OverReaching has been achieved, a New Periodization Training Cycle is begun with a substatially lighter load/intensity.

Doing so provides...

Active Recovery

The lighter load/intensity enhances recovery; where strength is increased.

2) OverTraining

OverTraining is produced when training is continued to be pushed past OverReaching.

The farther OverTraining is pushed, the longer recover period.

It has to do with...

"Wound Healing"

This states that the shorter and less trauma to the body (training, disease, etc.) the faster the recovery, as with OverReaching.

The longer and greater trauma to the body, the longer the revovery. as with OverTraining.

Muay Training

Since this is your focus, the objective needs to be on a program that enhances recovery without depleting your Muay Training.

Your Muay Training probably provide you with enough conditioning. If so consider...

Velocity Based Training

This Explosive Power Training with moderate load, low repetition for multiple sets.

Velocity Based Training develops Power and maintains strength.

High Intensity Interval Training

Some type of Sprint Training; like Sprint on the Airdyne Bike.



The paradox is that research has demonstrated that High Intensity Interval Training increasese anaerobic and aerobic capaticy at the same time.

Due to the intensity of this type of workout, training session need to be limited to 2-3 times a week.

The good part of Dr Jami Timmon's Prtocol is that it is a short workout, less than 10 minutes.

The downside is the 20 second sprints are brutal, if you perform the correctly.
 
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Anth

Level 4 Valued Member
Hmmm. Let's see if I can break this down more:


1. I can only go to one MT class a week, maybe 2 in the summer.
2. I can dedicate 30 minutes of other exercise.
2. The MT classes beat me up pretty badly, so I want a program to help me recover from that. I know S+S is great for this.
3. My main weakness is muscular endurance. I.e. my legs get heavy during sparring. I know airdyne sprints are good for this (S+S never did much for me in this area). Additionally, Airdyne sprints get so much "bang for buck" with the MT transfer, but also they are exhausting and I can't do them all the time.
4. Carries and armor building make me feel great when I do them properly.
5. I enjoy doing all of the above exercises and feel good gains when I do them, but I can't do them all, all the time.

Here are my main goals as specific as possible:

1. Increase leg endurance for MT.
2. Find a way to do the following exercises that I enjoy: S+S, Armor building, carries.

I realize that's chasing a lot of rabbits. Probably too many.

Would One Lift A Day help? Or, more accurately, One program a day?
Mon - Sprints
Tues - S+S
Wed - Armor building
Sat- carries
 

Anth

Level 4 Valued Member
Terms

1) OverReaching


OverReaching occurs when training is pushed the limit.

It should be part of a good Periodization Training Program in the final week of the cycle.

OverReaching ensure the muscles are stressed. Then allowed to recover, where increases in stregth take place.

Once OverReaching has been achieved, a New Periodization Training Cycle is begun with a substatially lighter load/intensity.

Doing so provides...

Active Recovery

The lighter load/intensity enhances recovery; where strength is increased.

2) OverTraining

OverTraining is produced when training is continued to be pushed past OverReaching.

The farther OverTraining is pushed, the longer recover period.

It has to do with...

"Wound Healing"

This states that the shorter and less trauma to the body (training, disease, etc.) the faster the recovery, as with OverReaching.

The longer and greater trauma to the body, the longer the revovery. as with OverTraining.

Muay Training

Since this is your focus, the objective needs to be on a program that enhances recovery without depleting your Muay Training.

Your Muay Training probably provide you with enough conditioning. If so consider...

Velocity Based Training

This Explosive Power Training with moderate load, low repetition for multiple sets.

Velocity Based Training develops Power and maintains strength.

High Intensity Interval Training

Some type of Sprint Training; like Sprint on the Airdyne Bike.



The paradox is that research has demonstrated that High Intensity Interval Training increasese anaerobic and aerobic capaticy at the same time.

Due to the intensity of this type of workout, training session need to be limited to 2-3 times a week.

The good part of Dr Jami Timmon's Prtocol is that it is a short workout, less than 10 minutes.

The downside is the 20 second sprints are brutal, if you perform the correctly.
I wonder, what about doing that sprinting protocol followed by a TGU, Armor building, or carries?
 

WhatWouldHulkDo

Level 7 Valued Member
2. The MT classes beat me up pretty badly, so I want a program to help me recover from that. I know S+S is great for this.
This statement makes me nervous. I don't particularly believe any program "helps you recover". Sure, there are beneficial effects for keeping the joints moving and getting the HR up a little bit to "flush the system", so to speak... but after a beat-down, the only thing that helps you recover is rest. Swinging a kettlebell and doing some TGUs doesn't magically make your muscles heal faster.

What you really want is something you can do that will help build work capacity, so the MT sessions don't beat you up so badly... but still leaves gas in the tank so that you can go to MT and get the full beat-down that you want (hey, beat-downs are fun sometimes).

I'd think something A+A-ish might be good. On some days, do something high-power (sprints, airdyne, whatever) with lots of rest, stay away from the burn. Some days, aerobic work - low effort, long duration. MT is the only burn-out day.
 

Anth

Level 4 Valued Member
This statement makes me nervous. I don't particularly believe any program "helps you recover". Sure, there are beneficial effects for keeping the joints moving and getting the HR up a little bit to "flush the system", so to speak... but after a beat-down, the only thing that helps you recover is rest. Swinging a kettlebell and doing some TGUs doesn't magically make your muscles heal faster.

What you really want is something you can do that will help build work capacity, so the MT sessions don't beat you up so badly... but still leaves gas in the tank so that you can go to MT and get the full beat-down that you want (hey, beat-downs are fun sometimes).

I'd think something A+A-ish might be good. On some days, do something high-power (sprints, airdyne, whatever) with lots of rest, stay away from the burn. Some days, aerobic work - low effort, long duration. MT is the only burn-out day.
I suppose I mean a light S+S day. Either with light weight or lower reps. The "motion is lotion" principle. I'm not picking up the 32k after getting beat up.
 

Anth

Level 4 Valued Member
Okay, I've been reading other threads that mention that sprinting protocol. It sounds perfect actually. My only question (sorry if this is dumb), why isn't everyone doing it? Or at least, why isn't it a part of everyone's program? 10 minutes for that much benefit? Is it too good to be true? A magic pill? Or does it really get results?
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
I wonder, what about doing that sprinting protocol followed by a TGU, Armor building, or carries
What The Reason

What is the reason for following Sprint Interval with TGU, etc?

High Intensity Intteral Training

Having enough energy to perform something like TGU, etc. means you did really push you High Intensity Interval Training as hard as you could.
 

BJJ Shawn

Level 6 Valued Member
Okay, I've been reading other threads that mention that sprinting protocol. It sounds perfect actually. My only question (sorry if this is dumb), why isn't everyone doing it? Or at least, why isn't it a part of everyone's program? 10 minutes for that much benefit? Is it too good to be true? A magic pill? Or does it really get results?
Depending on your training and sports background, for adults that don't do it very often sprinting can actually cause a lot of injuries. While it seems like we should all be able to do it since in my brain I feel like we all grew up sprinting for sports, but that is simply not true and even less true the older we get. That is often why hill sprints or sled pulls are recommended, because you get the benefits of sprinting but you are moving much slower so it's safer.
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 7 Valued Member
why isn't everyone doing it? Or at least, why isn't it a part of everyone's program? 10 minutes for that much benefit?
Brutal Training

One of the reason, is that High Intensity Interval Training is brutal. I doubt that most individual are willing to push it to the limit.

Is it too good to be true? Is it too good to be true? A magic pill?

Lack of Knowledge

As you have indicated, your knowledge on this is limited; as with many individuals.

does it really get results?

Research Data

There is pleant of online research data demonstrated the benefits of High Intensity Interval Training.

The Paradox of High Intensity Interval Training

As mentioned in my previous post, it increasese anaerobic and aerobic capaticy at the same time.

That means that Explosive Power is develped; it increases Fast Type II Muscle Fiber.

It also increases as well as increasing VO2 Max (Endurance Capacity). This information has is posted on this site.

The research demonstrated a greater VO2 Max that Low Intensity Aerobic Training.

Don't take my word or anyone elses word on it. Do your own research and find out.
 

Anth

Level 4 Valued Member
Okay, I am going to try that sprint protocol 2-3 times a week and then do mostly light movements after depending on how I feel (TGU, carries, armor building).

@Kenny Croxdale Are you supposed to be done after those three sprints? I'm not in fantastic shape, but I can't imagine that I'd be more tired than after a 3-minute round of sparring.
 
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3letterslong

Level 5 Valued Member
I found it was easiest to commit to a minimalist workout when I realized that was the best way for me to progress in my strength goals.

I've found Naked Warrior + pull-ups or Convict Conditioning to be the best strength supplements to a heavy martial arts schedule because they don't take anything out of you. Now that I'm doing hanging + crawling, I'd add that to the list.

So it wouldn't be difficult to do something like Convict Conditioning 2 days a week, 10-15 minutes each session, + some Airdyne work. You wouldn't even need blocks if you didn't want to interrupt your progress.

I'm typing this in a hurry. Forgive me if it's dumb.
 
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