Two-Lift Programs, a Conversation Starter

Simply strong

Level 3 Valued Member
What if one combined variety and minamalism.

Pick one main lift, eg the deadlift, Then choose several lifts to go into a circuit (I love EMOM for this) to do every session / every day.

If your main lift is a hinge then choose a push, pull, squat and carry exercise for the circuit. Progress the time not the reps or intensity of any exercise. It doesn’t matter if you don’t do a full round of each exercise.

Eg main lift is deadlift
Then EMOM circuit is Goblet squat, Push ups, Bent over row and OH walks.

Or main lift is the kettlebell clean and press (a pull/push) your circuit could be swings, double kb front squat, farmers carry and rollouts.

This way your working not on two exercises but on an exercise and a circuit.

Best of both worlds or worst of both worlds?
 

MikeTheBear

Level 6 Valued Member
@Simply strong Michael Rutherford kind of has something like this. Rutherford runs a Crossfit box but he is smart about. He realized that many Crossfitters were being held back by a lack of maximum strength so he came up with the Max Effort Black Box. It's 3 days a week with a day of rest in between. Workout starts with working up to a 5, 3, or 1RM on a lift. Then you do a metcon, Finish with a posterior chain. Always. For instance, if your ME lift was overhead press, do a posterior chain exercise. If your ME exercise hit the posterior chain, you still do a posterior chain exercise.

It's a cool template.
 

Antti

Level 8 Valued Member
@Simply strong Michael Rutherford kind of has something like this. Rutherford runs a Crossfit box but he is smart about. He realized that many Crossfitters were being held back by a lack of maximum strength so he came up with the Max Effort Black Box. It's 3 days a week with a day of rest in between. Workout starts with working up to a 5, 3, or 1RM on a lift. Then you do a metcon, Finish with a posterior chain. Always. For instance, if your ME lift was overhead press, do a posterior chain exercise. If your ME exercise hit the posterior chain, you still do a posterior chain exercise.

It's a cool template.
What do they consider as potential exercises for the posterior chain finisher?
 

MikeTheBear

Level 6 Valued Member
@Antii The recommendation is 3-5 sets of 5-10 reps of any of the following movements:

PC Move Day 1: RDL (bilateral), RDL (unilateral), glute ham raise, reverse hyper.

PC Move Day 2: Hip bridge with a band, Swiss ball hip bridge/leg curl, good morning, hip extension on bench.

PC Move Day 3: Reverse T-walk, anterior reach, swings.

I'm sure that the reverse T-walk and the anterior reach are described in the accompanying ebook, but you can't beat swings so I never bothered to look up these exercises.

The program is mean to go 9 weeks with 3-week microcycles. After every 3 weeks you change the ME move and it is recommended to change the PC exercise. It's not a "true" finisher in that you don't do it as fast as possible. Just do these like regular sets of a strength exercise. Everything is in a spreadsheet with drop down menus so planning this out is easy.

If you're interested in the ME portion it's pretty simple. Again Rutherford has these all in drop down menus but the spreadsheet is protected so I can't copy and paste and don't feel like typing them all, so I'll give an overview.

Day 1: Basically any variation of an Olympic lift you want. Pulls are okay if you don't want to do the full lifts. Rutherford does not pair the jerk with the clean, which is interesting.

Day 2: Lower body exercise. Any version of a squat or single leg squat. Trap bar DL okay but not a regular DL.

Day 3: Upper body exercise. Any press variation you want, dips, or pull ups. If you didn't do a jerk on Day 1 you can do that as your movement.

Progression (No, this is not like Wendler's 5/3/1 despite the similarity):

Week 1: Work up to a heavy set of 5.

Week 2: Work up to a heavy set of 3.

Week 3: Work up to a heavy set of 1.

Week 4: Choose new exercises and repeat.
 

Deleted member 5559

Guest
1. Snatches
2. Front squats
Bruce Wilhelm won worlds strongest man a couple times with his most recent training background of essentially this. Not sure what his shot put or wrestling training looked like but perhaps still similar.
//
What if one combined variety and minamalism.
I would argue that Crossfit programming is the antithesis to a minimalist program. There may have been a time when you could minimalistly train muscle-ups and snatches in various intensity/volume combinations and still be competitive but the sport of Crossfit, I think, requires a plethora of specific variety now.

For a different thread: I would like to see a StrongFirst approach to programming for a Crossfit competitor though.
 

MikeTheBear

Level 6 Valued Member
For a different thread: I would like to see a StrongFirst approach to programming for a Crossfit competitor though.
Go ahead and start one. Christian Thibaudeau trains CF competitors. His philosophy is that a CF athlete is basically an Olympic weightlifter with mutant work capacity. I think that's about right.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
I guess I'm a bit slow but earlier today it sort of hit me that it's important to not get stuck in only straight forward or back or upwards strength. The twisting (expressed more in anti-twisting) strength is also very important. Asymmetrical movements like the one arm pushup, one arm swing, one arm snatch, TGUs etc cover the twist/anti-twist strength. I guess suitcase carries and one arm C&P would too to some extent. I'm always speaking from a judo wrestler's perspective, and maybe one reason some of the gym body types aren't too strong on the mats is because they are always doing symmetrical moves with barbells or bodyweight and aren't working the anti-twist stuff that comes into play all the time, every moment of wrestling.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
I guess I'm a bit slow but earlier today it sort of hit me that it's important to not get stuck in only straight forward or back or upwards strength.
No, I don't think you're "a bit slow" - I do think you are unabashed when it comes to asking questions as they come to you, and I find nothing wrong with that.

The twisting (expressed more in anti-twisting) strength is also very important. Asymmetrical movements like the one arm pushup, one arm swing, one arm snatch, TGUs etc cover the twist/anti-twist strength. I guess suitcase carries and one arm C&P would too to some extent.
Part of the reason the movements in our minimalist programs have been selected is because they provide a lot of "what the heck" effect. What the heck effect is also sometimes called carryover, but we need to be careful about how we use our terms. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to expect carryover between different lifts since they're all pretty specific. But, as you've observed, things like deadlifts, one-arm presses, swings and getups can help you perform better at a sport - in your case, judo. That is all good. And it's why I prefer to talk about the WTH effect rather than carryover.

I'm always speaking from a judo wrestler's perspective, and maybe one reason some of the gym body types aren't too strong on the mats is because they are always doing symmetrical moves with barbells or bodyweight and aren't working the anti-twist stuff that comes into play all the time, every moment of wrestling.
And I think that, for most people most of the time, doing something like a getup or a one-armed standing press is going to provide a pretty big WTH effect and alleviate the need for specifically training rotational movements. Good, IMHO, to remember that for a sport athlete, strength training is GPP, and a lot of the improvement that are to be made should be made while performing the sport itself.

So, deadlift + one-armed press + practice judo should yield a pretty good judo athlete. The same can be said for swing + getup + practice judo.

-S-
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
And
No, I don't think you're "a bit slow" - I do think you are unabashed when it comes to asking questions as they come to you, and I find nothing wrong with that.



Part of the reason the movements in our minimalist programs have been selected is because they provide a lot of "what the heck" effect. What the heck effect is also sometimes called carryover, but we need to be careful about how we use our terms. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to expect carryover between different lifts since they're all pretty specific. But, as you've observed, things like deadlifts, one-arm presses, swings and getups can help you perform better at a sport - in your case, judo. That is all good. And it's why I prefer to talk about the WTH effect rather than carryover.

And I think that, for most people most of the time, doing something like a getup or a one-armed standing press is going to provide a pretty big WTH effect and alleviate the need for specifically training rotational movements. Good, IMHO, to remember that for a sport athlete, strength training is GPP, and a lot of the improvement that are to be made should be made while performing the sport itself.

So, deadlift + one-armed press + practice judo should yield a pretty good judo athlete. The same can be said for swing + getup + practice judo.

-S-
And me, doing all four of those, hehehe... WTH effect squared! :)

The funny thing these days is that while of course I don't have anywhere near the precision and tactics of the guys I call the pros (and some are indeed professional judo wrestlers!) if we're talking "mat strength" I'm considered to be a "monster" by everyone there. Sure, I lose to the pros, and I should, that's natural as I'm only a recreational player, but my gazillion questions and debates on these forums and following the SF programs have unlocked quite a lot of WTH for my practical strength. I can't deadlift 700lbs like several of my friends, but the WTH aspects of what I'm doing makes for a huge practical advantage on the mats.

I was always so weak compared with others for most of my judo career. Now it's the opposite. It's a nice feeling! I know how to get strong now.
 

SuperGirevik

Level 3 Valued Member
Great thread! I'm biased towards S&S because I ran it for over 3 months straight (daily) and saw a big improvement in my life. S&S provides a great strength and aerobic base. I feel that outside of S&S, it becomes a matter of one desiring something specific.

The TGU would be my solo exercise of choice if I had to choose.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
The TGU would be my solo exercise of choice if I had to choose.
If I had to choose only one exercise, it would be the kettlebell snatch.

If I had to choose only one or two exercises at a time, it would be the kettlebell snatch sometimes, and the barbell deadlift plus a press at other times, e.g., 3-6 months of one then switch.

-S-
 

Bauer

Level 6 Valued Member
One thing to keep in mind with two-lift programs is that they are usually accompanied by other "balancing" moves.

Take S&S: two lifts that you progress with, and five moves for warmup and mobility. Add hanging and arm bars and that's seven. And yet it is still a minimalist program!

As @Steve Freides says in the original post: You don't need to load everything the same way.

Great thread, it was a pleasure to read it again.
 

Sauli

Level 7 Valued Member
I tested today q&d swing+pushup plan, but I instead of push ups I did light dbl jerks. It felt very good actually..
 

Pasibrzuch

Level 5 Valued Member
Does anyone have any experience with KB Snatch+Ring Muscle-up?
Ring Muscle-up seems to me like the grind counterpart of Snatch for the upper body: all in one, push and pull. Anyone tried their luck with such choice of exercises?
 
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