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Old Forum Ultimate Warrior Dies of Heart disease

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AceecA

Level 3 Valued Member
Nick, i'm going to assume you're replying to me (actually kind of excited to discuss this, i'm just in the mood, if you know what i mean).

in any case, i disagree with the scientists view. And i agree that emperical evidence is essential for making decisions in our lives. You used emperical evidence to support your view (which i agree with) that depending on ones genetics, a person can get to a muscular weight over 200lbs.

my point was that scientist stated his position with points (doesn't make him right, its just how you set up an position), the correct way to disagree is with your our points or counterpoints (Which you did in your second to last post).

now, the nazis said the jews were an inferior race, this doesn't make it true, it's just a statement. Its easily refuted (this is just clearly presenting the reason why you don't believe the statement), they have the same dna, there were many wealthy jews, showing an advanced  intellect and drive compared to those around them, etc... This is how you refute a statement you disagree with, with proofs.

there is a strategy when dealing with different opinions (you will see this all around you) it says "if you can't attack a mans logic, attack the man" which is to say, if you can't refute what he's saying, defame his character so that no one will listen to him.

This is what i hate seeing (now granted, i could easily just skip over this post and it wouldn't matter, but like i said, i'm just in a mood) then he is defending himself instead of anyone really discussing the topic at hand. And its impossible to defend yourself over a forum, so then you have all the self righteous posters condemning him for his arrogance (because he defended himself)  and labeling him with terms (like Troll, which i can't stand) that will associated him in readers minds as someone who is trying to cause turmoil (i hate labels), which he didn't do.

If someone doesn't agree with his points, post counterpoints (which you did). If you (all self righteous posters insert your name here) don't have the ability to articulate your disagreement with his position, Do Not take your inability as license to disrespect, condemn, or tell another poster what beliefs they have to have. you are not a totalitarian ruler and self righteousness isn't a excuse for disrespect.

One more thing, please don't tell him that he's the one being disrespectful (you can tell me that i am, but remember, i didn't start posting to discuss the topic, i started posting in response to an on going argument. Quid pro quo...

(thank you again for the opportunity to express myself)

 
 

AceecA

Level 3 Valued Member
Ps i realize that grouping everyone together as self righteous is labeling many good people in a way they don't deserve, i apologize If i offended anyone as this was not my intention. As i reread my post it sounded harsher than i intended, if you could read it with a sidebar that i'm a fun loving guy who likes having a good time and not a stodgy prick, i would appreciate it...
 

23rdwave

Level 5 Valued Member
The Scientist and I have some history so it was he who I was replying to but I appreciate your thoughts and agree with most of what you wrote. The Scientist's style isn't to everyone's liking and he would win more converts by having a less confrontational style. Eventually he will realize, disagree or not, that I speak from experience or I would not be speaking.

We all essentially have the same engine in our bodies and if you put a Porsche engine in a truck that truck is not going to run optimally and the large frame of the truck will damage the engine faster than the smaller frame of the Porsche. Most of us on this forum are looking for the right balance to be the best we can be physically and to get the most out of our bodies as well as live long healthy lives. Being overweight whether it's too much fat (bad) or muscle (mostly good) can lead to heart problems. Why would anyone want the body's most important muscle, the heart, to have to work harder? Ask a cardiologist.
 

Al Ciampa

Level 7 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Maybe I missed it, but in the three pages of back-and-forth beta male posturing I just read, not one person identified the most likely cause of this man's demise: his diet and by extension, his lifestyle (stress, etc.).

Most of you are speaking from speculation, based on conventional wisdom - an error.

Sven had the most insightful contribution to this thread ... then Jon Ace had to come along and say something cool too.

Can we please let this thread die and get back to our training?
 

The Scientist

Level 3 Valued Member
It seems like everyone is misinterpreting what I am saying. Nick and I really agree more than it appears. I agree that being too heavy is hard on the heart. All I am saying is that everyone overestimates how large you can get without steroids or obesity. This paper (actual data) demonstrates this clearly. People who are not on drugs and weigh 250 lbs are very likely underestimating their body fat %, and do not have nearly as much muscle as they think.

 

Kouri EM, et. al.Fat-free mass index in users and nonusers of anabolic-androgenic steroids.  Clin J Sport Med. (1995) 5(4):223-8.

We calculated fat-free mass index (FFMI) in a sample of 157 male athletes, comprising 83 users of anabolic-androgenic steroids and 74 nonusers. FFMI is defined by the formula (fat-free body mass in kg) x (height in meters)-2. We then added a slight correction of 6.3 x (1.80 m – height) to normalize these values to the height of a 1.8-m man. The normalized FFMI values of athletes who had not used steroids extended up to a well-defined limit of 25.0. Similarly, a sample of 20 Mr. America winners from the presteroid era (1939-1959), for whom we estimated the normalized FFMI, had a mean FFMI of 25.4. By contrast, the FFMI of many of the steroid users in our sample easily exceeded 25.0, and that of some even exceeded 30. Thus, although these findings must be regarded as preliminary, it appears that FFMI may represent a useful initial measure to screen for possible steroid abuse, especially in athletic, medical, or forensic situations in which individuals may attempt to deny such behavior

 

Also, my confrontational style may rub some the wrong way, but it is likely a product of my training. In science, calling out unsubstantiated claims and demanding evidence is essential for progress.

 

Lastly, blaming the actions of bad people (Nazis are a favorite for some reason) on science is absurd. I can find priests, scientists, and fitness instructors that have all done terrible things. That doesn't mean I blame religion, science or exercise as the root of the problem. Bad people do bad things with the tools they have, and good people do good things with the tools they have. It is the person, not the tool, that is the problem. However, science is the only reliable means we have to objective truth in most cases. Superstition got humanity nowhere over thousands of years, and science has brought us a long way in the last several hundred.
 

crash123

Level 3 Valued Member
this is crazy - the Ultimate Warrior was a great entertainer.  How about reflecting on his positive attitudes, beliefs and love of people to put some of that same energy into our own lives.  watch some of the WWE Ultimate Warrior highlights.  he was in the ring with Andre the Giant, Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker - he was part of some of the top entertainment icons of his generation.  His energy will be missed.  His positive attitude was legendary.  Always believe.
 
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