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Barbell Unconventional "Big Three". Opinions?

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Football Bat

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Hello,

Assuming good technique would you be missing out on anything by replacing deadlifts with power cleans?

I've designed a program in which my "big three" are the overhead press, Jefferson lift, and power clean (nothing but a barbell required!) and was wondering if the power clean would be sufficient to keep the posterior chain in balance with the anterior. (The Jefferson lift is very quad dominant!)
 
I actually think power cleans are super especially if you do another sport. I had a look thru my own logs and I found that I usually had good bjj sessions and competitions when I was doing the quick lifts.

As for the jefferson lift - i am kinda thinking it is like a trap bar deadlift haha but truth is you don’t get the squat movement. I would say zercher squat maybe or front squat (but it is hard to load this when pulling from floor as the clean is the limiter in weight).

My 2 cents worth, hope u don’t mind.
 
I was thinking the other day about something alternative to TSC but with barbell only, including lower and upper body strength, and testing strength, strength-endurance and conditioning, all related to bodyweight somehow, and came up with this:

- Max Strict Press, 3 attempts
- AMRAP Back Squat with BW for reps
- Hang Power Clean max reps in 5min with some light weight

Never tried it but it was a fun mind exercise and felt like a full package.

As of power cleans instead of DL I don't know, but recently heard that many athletes are not DLing and doing Cleans as they seems safer and more athletic. Not sure of this is true and not sure if there is something that can replace the demands of heavy DL.
 
I like it. I’m thinking of trying the Jefferson lift for my next round of Easy Strength.

I also think you can’t go wrong with C+P+FSQ
 
As someone who can zercher more than high bar back squat (never really tried low bar) I’d say go for zerchers!

I often do zerchers then swings so power clean, zerchers and ohp is a very good combo!

The good thing about zerchers too is you essentially get a deadlift per set so your posterior chain is getting a ballistic and a grind.

Has anyone ever treated zerchers like get ups or bent press and done predominantly heavier singles (so one squat and pull per set)? Like instead of doing sets with multiple squats doing sets of 1 and doing a high number of sets
 
If I really had to choose three exercises, they would be:

- Full clean (when the load is heavy enough, you can't avoid doing a full squat). That takes care of the entire lower body, general athleticism and upper back.

- Pull ups. Any variation or, better still, all of them.

- Dips.

If doing cleans is not possible for whatever reason, I'd choose back squats. Generally speaking, if you can squat a load, you should be able to pull that same load from the floor without even practicing the lift.

Anyway, I will never be comfortable unless I can pick four exercises: a lower body pull, a lower body push, an upper body pull and an upper body push.
 
recently heard that many athletes are not DLing and doing Cleans as they seems safer and more athletic.
'

"Believe Nothing You Hear, and Only One Half That You See."

You heard wrong. This is how misinformation is perpetuated and kept alive, passing on something you hear rather than taking the time to research the facts and find out.

Deadlifts or movement that are similar in nature to them (Good Mornings, Back/Hip Extensions, etc) are still part of a good strength training program and should be.

Olympic Movements

In the world of sports, "Power is King". Most sports require explosive-ballistic movements; running, jumping, etc.

Power Cleans primarily develop power. The power output of Olympic Movements is over four time greater than in a Deadlift.

Thus, Power Training in the gym transfers to the game.

However, ...

Strength Is The Foundation For Power

Initially, increasing Limit Strength (1 Repetition Max) increases Power.

Also, strength training is mandatory for maintaining power.

Deadlifts are primarily develop strength in the posterior chain.

Thus, Deadlifts and similar Posterior Chain Strength Exercises are a vital component in the development of Power.

Conjugate Training

This means combining different types of Strength Training into one program: Limits Strength, Power and Hypertrophy.

Research (Dr Michael Zourdos) and anecdotal data (Westside Powerlifting Program) have demonstrated that one strength enhances the other.

"Technique Is Everything"

As for being a safe exercise...

To phrase Shakespeare, "No exercise is good or bad, but preforming it (right or wrong) makes it so (safe or unsafe)."

Power Cleans are no safer than Deadlifts or any other exercise.

If you preform any exercise incorrectly it is not safe.

If you preform is correctly it is safe.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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@kennycro@@aol.com

So what I took from that is that you probably wouldn't reach your maximum potential in the power clean without some kind of grind to complement.
Regardless of that, in your opinion do you think the power clean alone would be able to build a respectable amount of strength and hypertrophy in the posterior chain?

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere that NFL players who exceed a 2 times body weight squat show no further improvement to their playing ability.
Is there a similar number for the power clean? And how hard would it be to reach that number without the assistance of a grind?
 
@kennycro@@aol.com

So what I took from that is that you probably wouldn't reach your maximum potential in the power clean without some kind of grind to complement.
Regardless of that, in your opinion do you think the power clean alone would be able to build a respectable amount of strength and hypertrophy in the posterior chain?

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere that NFL players who exceed a 2 times body weight squat show no further improvement to their playing ability.
Is there a similar number for the power clean? And how hard would it be to reach that number without the assistance of a grind?

Generally speaking, if your power clean, bench press and front squat are roughly the same, you are in the right path.
 
So what I took from that is that you probably wouldn't reach your maximum potential in the power clean without some kind of grind to complement.

Limit Strength

To reiterate, Strength is the foundation on which Power is built.

So yes, to "Reach your maximal potential in the Power Clean" increasing your Limit Strength is a vital component.

The Real Power Sport

The Olympic Lifts and Movements (Power Clean, etc) are the true power lifts. Olympic Lifts have some, if not the highest power output measured in sports...

"Olympic pull register high Power Output. Research (Dr John Garhammer/"A Review of Power Output Studies of Olympic and Powerlifting: Methodology, Performance, Prediction and Evaluation Test")

During Entire Snatch or Clean Pull Movements:
34.3 w/kg Men
21.8 w/kg Women

Second Pulls:
52.6 w/kg Men
39.2 w/kg Women

Squat and Deadlift:
12 w/kg Men
Source: "The No Deadlift, Deadlift Program"


Dr Mike Stone

Stone is regarded as one of the Guru's of Strength Training; formally working with Olympic Lifters at the US Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs.

In an interview, Dr Mike Stone was ask what American Olympic Lifters needed to do to become better, place higher, in competition.

Stone's replied, "They need to get stronger."

Shot Putters

Shot Putter's power output is essentially the same as Olympic Lifters.

Think of it this way. Which Shot Putter is most likely throw the farthest? The Shot Putter who Incline Presses 300 lbs and Squat 500 lbs or the the Shot Putter who Incline Presses 200 lbs and Squats 400 lbs?

The Caveat of Limit Strength Training

There is some truth to the old adage, "Strength Training makes you slow."

One of the reason for that is the Limit Strength Training converts "Super" Fast Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber over to Fast Twitch Type IIa Muscle Fiber.

That means your strength increased and your power and speed decreases.

The opposite occurs if you focus on only Power and/or Speed Training but neglect Limit Strength Training; Power and/or Speed increase while Limit Strength decreases.

Source: A Comparison of Strength and Power Characteristics Between Power Lifters, Olympic Lifters, and Sprinters, McBride, Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 1999, 13(1), 58–66 q 1999 National Strength & Conditioning Association

Conjugate Training

Olympic Lifters are the Poster Children for Conjugate Training. Their training revolves around Limit Strength Training exercises and the Power Movements: Power Cleans, Power Snatches, High Pull Cleans and Snatches, Hang Pulls, Jerks, etc.

Combining Power (Olympic Lift Movements) with Limit Strength exercises increase both strengths.

...in your opinion do you think the power clean alone would be able to build a respectable amount of strength and hypertrophy in the posterior chain?

Power Cleans

The Power Cleans is predominately a Power Movement. It will build some strength but not to the same extent that heavy Deadlifts or Good Morning will in the posterior chain.

Hypertrophy

Hypertrophy Training requires sets of 8 - 12 repetitions. IF you preform Power Clean in that repetition range you will obtain some hypertrophy.

However, using a Power Clean for Hypertrophy Training amount to using a crescent wrench to drive a nail instead of a hammer. You are using the wrong tool for the job.

Also, high repetitions with a Power Clean ensure you will develop poor technique. Technique falls apart when fatigue set in.

I remember reading somewhere that NFL players who exceed a 2 times body weight squat show no further improvement to their playing ability.

Source

It's hard to make make much of a comment on that without reading the source. You need to provide the sources of "What you heard" and "What you read". Snapshots of information like what you have stated never provide the whole picture.

Is there a similar number for the power clean?

Higher Is Better

The Power Clean is a measurement of Power.

Thus, being able to pull a greater load means you have more power than pulling a lighter load.

And how hard would it be to reach that number without the assistance of a grind?

Limit Strength

To reiterate once more, "Strength is the foundation of Power."

As Dr Mike Stone stated, American Olympic Lifter need to increase their Limit Strength in order to maximize their Olympic Lifts and place higher.

Reaching whatever "that number is" require a well written and executed program that includes Limit Strength Training and Technique Development.

Summary

1) Strength is the foundation on which Power is built. This is one point that need to be hammered home.

2) Conjugate Training that employs Limit Strength and Power Training enhances both.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Generally speaking, if your power clean, bench press and front squat are roughly the same, you are in the right path.

Seems a little weak in the front squat no?

Most Olympic lifters equate their front squat to their full clean, so power clean would be lower.

Using the old 300/400/500 for Bench/squat/dead I would have put the front squat somewhere in between bench and squat so roughly 350 or about 115-120% of bench
 
Seems a little weak in the front squat no?

Most Olympic lifters equate their front squat to their full clean, so power clean would be lower.

Using the old 300/400/500 for Bench/squat/dead I would have put the front squat somewhere in between bench and squat so roughly 350 or about 115-120% of bench

That's why I said "roughly".

Almost all my personal benchmarks revolve around the same percentage: 150% of bodyweight. If I can keep all my lifts within a somewhat close range, I know I'm good.

For instance: a 125% power clean, a 150% bench and a 175% front squat is a good thing but, maybe, a little bit unbalanced. I'd much rather do two front squats for every power clean and let the lifts get naturally close together (your front squats will always be higher than you best power clean, but doubling the volume seems to take care of many things).

If I'm able to keep my power clean, front squat, RDL, push press, incline bench, incline row, dips and pull ups roughly the same, I will be a happy person.

Once again, keep in mind that my goals are very, very very particular (I'm a martial artist first, second and third).

Also, if you take your best full clean as a benchmark (nothing wrong with that), it will always include a front squat to some degree, which I find kind of annoying if I try to keep a separate benchmark for it. But, hey, that's just my preference.
 
Small update. Looks like my original question was moot. It seems that if you keep your feet close and parallel the Jefferson lift becomes more of a hinge. Keep the weight equal between your legs and it feels just like a trap bar deadlift as @godjira1 correctly assumed.
 
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