all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Upper body involvement in the snatch

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

Simply strong

Level 4 Valued Member
How do snatches compare to pull ups in terms of upper body muscles involved?

Would the press and snatch be sufficient for upper body or is it necessary to do pull ups? In the Viking warrior conditioning program he includes the snatch, press, pull up and pistol but won’t this lead to over development of the biceps vs triceps etc?
 
@Simply strong Welcome to the StrongFirst forum!

If you're training the press, you'd do well to include pull-ups in your training as well to balance it out. I also find that hanging from a bar is a great way to relax and stretch the shoulders after heavy presses/get-ups.

@rickyw is correct that heavy snatches will work, more or less, the entire body, however if you're following VWC, your snatches will be with a light bell so you'll want to keep up your heavier pulls, presses and squats if you want to maintain/increase your strength.
 
Depends on your overall programme structure.
A big push and a big pull is a great minimalist programme.
However adding in some extra pulls like rows and pullups if not done ad nauseam almost never impedes any prorgramme because people gererally don't pull enough.
 
Many people (myself included) have found that heavy snatches can maintain/improve pull ups. I can't speak for VWC. Of course, if you have the time and ability to recover from them, pull ups are almost never a bad ;).

Don't worry too much about "muscle imbalances." If you can maintain pain free, high quality movement, to include good posture, you're fine. If you can't do those things, it's probably not due to a muscle imbalance, anyways...
 
Welcome @Simply strong . I would echo @rickyw and @Chrisdavisjr - heavy snatches involve upper body muscles more than lighter snatches. Some definitions (up for discussion of course):
- Light = 30+RM. VWC is about increasing cardiovascular endurance, so the weight is light by necessity. 12-16kg is 13-18% of bodyweight for 90kg person.
- Medium = ~20RM. SFG snatch test comes to mind (20-24kg, sometimes 28kg). About 22-26% of bodyweight.
- Heavy = 8-10RM. While still hip driven, the upper-body pull/"punch" has to handle more absolute weight, not to mention control the descent and back-swing. 28-36kg is 31-40% of bodyweight for a 90kg person.

I am in a season of high volume heavy snatches (28-32kg) done in repeats of 5 (alternating arms) with 1:00-1:15 rest. I feel "well-worked" on my whole body, upper and lower, front and back - "grip, guts (abs/obliques), and glutes" as they say.

Per @Snowman, I haven't been training pull-ups but will be curious to test my RM next week having not trained them but with high-volume heavy snatching. I'm also testing my deadlift and will re-test in 6-7 weeks at the conclusion of the snatch protocol to see how my deadlift holds up (or improves?) without specifically training it.

Note about VWC: The program is the snatch sessions; the book does mention strength work but it should be considered ancillary to the main goal of the conditioning protocol. @Bret S. has done VWC and may be able to comment further.
 
Sean M said:
Welcome @Simply strong . I would echo @rickyw and @Chrisdavisjr - heavy snatches involve upper body muscles more than lighter snatches. Some definitions (up for discussion of course):
- Light = 30+RM. VWC is about increasing cardiovascular endurance, so the weight is light by necessity. 12-16kg is 13-18% of bodyweight for 90kg person.
- Medium = ~20RM. SFG snatch test comes to mind (20-24kg, sometimes 28kg). About 22-26% of bodyweight.
- Heavy = 8-10RM. While still hip driven, the upper-body pull/"punch" has to handle more absolute weight, not to mention control the descent and back-swing. 28-36kg is 31-40% of bodyweight for a 90kg person.
Click to expand...
+1 this is Really great! ive recently been doing snatch ladders of (2,4,6,8) with 28kg (10rm and at 79kg that makes it 35% of my bodyweight) and Yeah it works everything pretty nicely.
 
Simply strong said:
How do snatches compare to pull ups in terms of upper body muscles involved?

Would the press and snatch be sufficient for upper body or is it necessary to do pull ups? In the Viking warrior conditioning program he includes the snatch, press, pull up and pistol but won’t this lead to over development of the biceps vs triceps etc?
Click to expand...

Hello @Simply strong , Are you planning on going for VWC? It's a great program if you don't over-do it, regarding hypertrophy I wouldn't be concerned. If you do the program you will get stronger overall with some nice balanced muscle growth, not alot but it's there.
Personally I always do pull-ups no matter what
 
Chrisdavisjr said:
@rickyw is correct that heavy snatches will work, more or less, the entire body, however if you're following VWC, your snatches will be with a light bell so you'll want to keep up your heavier pulls, presses and squats if you want to maintain/increase your strength.
Click to expand...
It wasn't an expected outcome but VWC increased my strength in everything and gave me a very 'springy' athletic feeling.
Let's not forget, in a VWC session lasting 40 mins you lift over 11 tons.
 
Thanks for all the reply’s! I haven’t started the VWC program as yet. Currently my snatch work is done with the “100 reps in 5 mins” goal in mind. I got the 100 reps with a 20kg a while back and I think I’m about ready to test myself with the 24kg. So... medium?
 
(After giving up on the bent press for now) I've been doing a program where I begin with 5 sets of bodyweight dips superset with bodyweight pull-ups. I add one rep each workout (e.g. 3,3,3,3,3 then 4,3,3,3,3 then 4,4,3,3,3). After this "strength focus" I'm doing 20-25 repeats of 5 with a 24kg bell. My rest periods are 1:30 right now, but I am pushing them down as my power output allows (e.g. increasing rest periods when power output drops off during the workout). I'm doing this three days a week and I'm also doing slow locomotion (walking and running) on my non-KB days.

My plan, based on other posts in this forum, is to work up to 200 total reps and then start adding in sets of 3 reps with the 28kg bell.

I added the dips and pull-ups because I wanted adequate upper body strengthening/hypertrophy. Also, I feel like I can judge when I'm overtraining and can always drop them off if it gets to be too much. That's what I did with squats and pull-ups when I did KB strong.

Any feedback on this plan would be appreciated.
 
jhpowers said:
(After giving up on the bent press for now) I've been doing a program where I begin with 5 sets of bodyweight dips superset with bodyweight pull-ups. I add one rep each workout (e.g. 3,3,3,3,3 then 4,3,3,3,3 then 4,4,3,3,3). After this "strength focus" I'm doing 20-25 repeats of 5 with a 24kg bell. My rest periods are 1:30 right now, but I am pushing them down as my power output allows (e.g. increasing rest periods when power output drops off during the workout). I'm doing this three days a week and I'm also doing slow locomotion (walking and running) on my non-KB days.

My plan, based on other posts in this forum, is to work up to 200 total reps and then start adding in sets of 3 reps with the 28kg bell.

I added the dips and pull-ups because I wanted adequate upper body strengthening/hypertrophy. Also, I feel like I can judge when I'm overtraining and can always drop them off if it gets to be too much. That's what I did with squats and pull-ups when I did KB strong.

Any feedback on this plan would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Sounds great. I think dips are a great counter movement for snatches.

Only tweak would be to start with snatches and finish with strength work. You might also enjoy waving the number of repeats a bit more. Easy days of 14-16 are nice here and there.
 
Thanks for the input. I thought that a downward "push" might be a good complement to the upward "push" of the snatch. I like the idea of some easier days.

I think that it would be a good idea to do the ballistics/power work first. The way it works now, however, is that I wave the load in relation to my families ability to tolerate my workout. In other words, I do my strength work and then start doing snatch repeats until my wife and kids can no longer tolerate my absence from activities/homework/chores/ etc. Then I put the bell down and engage with the family. I usually have between 45 min and 1.5 hours. It's kind of like rolling the dice...just in a more natural way.
 
jhpowers said:
Thanks for the input. I thought that a downward "push" might be a good complement to the upward "push" of the snatch. I like the idea of some easier days.

I think that it would be a good idea to do the ballistics/power work first. The way it works now, however, is that I wave the load in relation to my families ability to tolerate my workout. In other words, I do my strength work and then start doing snatch repeats until my wife and kids can no longer tolerate my absence from activities/homework/chores/ etc. Then I put the bell down and engage with the family. I usually have between 45 min and 1.5 hours. It's kind of like rolling the dice...just in a more natural way.
Click to expand...

It can be a juggling act for sure. Sometimes my snatch sessions can get drawn out with small family tasks and chores sprinkled between repeats. A few 5 minute rests here and there might not be a bad thing.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom