Kettlebell Using a heart-rate monitor ... for the data-averse
- Thread starter Rob Lawrence
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AndyMcL
Level 5 Valued Member
Al, I'm starting to. On days where I feel really good or really bad it's pretty obvious. The values come in handy for those "in between days" where I have some soreness. I've been surprised some mornings by good readings, and then I tend to have good workouts. Hopefully as I collect more data I'll be able to zero in on the subtle differences and also see how my HRV trends over time.
HRV is definitely not the most important thing to track, but I'm the opposite of data averse, so I'm into it.
HRV is definitely not the most important thing to track, but I'm the opposite of data averse, so I'm into it.
Christian Gelderblom
Level 1 Valued Member
Andy and Al,
I am also using the Elite-HRV app for some time now. It works, especially for those "in-between-days" as Andy put it. I am tracking those numbers in my log for the RP_102, it seems to correlate - at least for me. Another plus: I have one more indicator telling me when to take a day off. I used to be quite bad at that - which resulted in some serious over-training earlier this year. Maybe I should not compensate my lack of self-awareness with my smartphone, but well...it's working.
I am also using the Elite-HRV app for some time now. It works, especially for those "in-between-days" as Andy put it. I am tracking those numbers in my log for the RP_102, it seems to correlate - at least for me. Another plus: I have one more indicator telling me when to take a day off. I used to be quite bad at that - which resulted in some serious over-training earlier this year. Maybe I should not compensate my lack of self-awareness with my smartphone, but well...it's working.
I've been using the EliteHRV app for 30 days now. Very interesting... So far, the effect for me has been to put a much higher premium on my sleep time. My attitude towards sleep has always been "7.5 hrs is optimum, but I can get by with 6 hrs", so I didn't really factor sleep time into my overall recovery state unless I was under 6 hrs. The app says that the slight differences are much more important than I thought. HRV shows a clear difference when I get a good night's sleep of 7.5-8 hrs vs. a semi-good night's sleep of 6.5 hrs. This is in conjunction with training and other factors, of course.
I don't know how the app calculates the "Readiness Score" number, because it's clearly not just HRV, but the Score is the number it says to go by, as far as how hard you are ready to go that day. Here is a sample of my Morning Readiness readings (going back 10 days because I was on vacation and not training this past week):
8/6/15 Score: 10 HRV: 58 HR: 62
8/7/15 Score: 4 HRV: 54 HR: 59 - day prior: training light, but sleep short
8/8/15 Score: 4 HRV: 61 HR: 55 - day prior: training moderate, but sleep short
8/9/15 Score: 9 HRV: 56 HR: 56 - rest day prior
8/10/15 Score: 8 HRV: 56 HR: 61 - long bike ride day prior but felt strong and slept well
8/11/15 Score: 8 HRV: 59 HR: 50
8/12/15 Score: 7 HRV: 56 HR: 57
8/13/15 Score: 4 HRV: 52 HR: 60 - training session day prior included 5 min snatch test
8/14/15 Score: 8 HRV: 56 HR: 55 - light training and good sleep day prior
I don't know how the app calculates the "Readiness Score" number, because it's clearly not just HRV, but the Score is the number it says to go by, as far as how hard you are ready to go that day. Here is a sample of my Morning Readiness readings (going back 10 days because I was on vacation and not training this past week):
8/6/15 Score: 10 HRV: 58 HR: 62
8/7/15 Score: 4 HRV: 54 HR: 59 - day prior: training light, but sleep short
8/8/15 Score: 4 HRV: 61 HR: 55 - day prior: training moderate, but sleep short
8/9/15 Score: 9 HRV: 56 HR: 56 - rest day prior
8/10/15 Score: 8 HRV: 56 HR: 61 - long bike ride day prior but felt strong and slept well
8/11/15 Score: 8 HRV: 59 HR: 50
8/12/15 Score: 7 HRV: 56 HR: 57
8/13/15 Score: 4 HRV: 52 HR: 60 - training session day prior included 5 min snatch test
8/14/15 Score: 8 HRV: 56 HR: 55 - light training and good sleep day prior
banzaiengr
Level 6 Valued Member
Here's a very interesting interview with Dr. Meffetone on Trail Runner Nation podcast. The interview is lengthy at 1 hr. 15 min. but he speaks to strength training at about the 50 min. mark. If, like myself, you are new to the Meffetone methods he explains it very well here.
http://trailrunnernation.com/2013/01/dr-phil-maffetone-speed-up-by-slowing-down/
http://trailrunnernation.com/2013/01/dr-phil-maffetone-speed-up-by-slowing-down/
Tom, Thanks, I am starting to believe it. In fact, that bike ride I noted above that was on 8/9 was unusually good -- I was riding really strong, and I had had a GREAT night's sleep the night prior. I suspect that was directly related. I do a regular group ride every Sunday and we tend to have the same riders and similar routes, so it's pretty noticeable when I have a ride performance that is out of the norm.
My sleep was poor last night, and again, even though I did only yoga yesterday and should be recovered, my HRV Score was a 4 this morning. I did a training session anyway, but kept it moderate. I'm intending on a good night's sleep tonight, but must first get a handle on my over-full evenings, nighttime acid reflux, and yowling house cat! Argh! So, we'll see what the Elite HRV wizard says tomorrow...
My sleep was poor last night, and again, even though I did only yoga yesterday and should be recovered, my HRV Score was a 4 this morning. I did a training session anyway, but kept it moderate. I'm intending on a good night's sleep tonight, but must first get a handle on my over-full evenings, nighttime acid reflux, and yowling house cat! Argh! So, we'll see what the Elite HRV wizard says tomorrow...
krg
Level 7 Valued Member
Anna,
I'd be interested in your philosophy on using HRV (I use the Elite app too). Do you want to keep everything green and healthy or would you ideally want to push into the yellow every now and again to push yourself harder but then back-off.
I've only been using the app for a couple of weeks but so far I tend to have high 'morning readiness' readings. I dont know whether to congratulate myself for low stress training, or give myself a kick up the butt for not pushing harder.
I am currently doing a RoP programme (20 kg for C+P, 24/20 kg for snatches, 32 kg for swings) keeping HR 180-age (best as I can anyway, means I only vary swing volume rather than intensity as in the programme as written). Doing swings, get-ups, loaded cleans on variety days (cant imagine life without get-ups) and some easy running or rowing. It's too early to tell how progress is other than I feel good. I am going to wait a month or so before I try a snatch test and see if I can press 24kg - it will be interesting to see what sort of effect test day has.
I'd be interested in your philosophy on using HRV (I use the Elite app too). Do you want to keep everything green and healthy or would you ideally want to push into the yellow every now and again to push yourself harder but then back-off.
I've only been using the app for a couple of weeks but so far I tend to have high 'morning readiness' readings. I dont know whether to congratulate myself for low stress training, or give myself a kick up the butt for not pushing harder.
I am currently doing a RoP programme (20 kg for C+P, 24/20 kg for snatches, 32 kg for swings) keeping HR 180-age (best as I can anyway, means I only vary swing volume rather than intensity as in the programme as written). Doing swings, get-ups, loaded cleans on variety days (cant imagine life without get-ups) and some easy running or rowing. It's too early to tell how progress is other than I feel good. I am going to wait a month or so before I try a snatch test and see if I can press 24kg - it will be interesting to see what sort of effect test day has.
Karl,
I have a lot more questions than I have theories at this point, but my guess would be that it depends on the training plan. On a daily/moderate program like S&S you would want to stay green and healthy as much as possible, but on a light/med/hard "wavy" program you would want to push into yellow a couple of times per week, which would indicate you appropriately stressed yourself, and then recover.
If your indicators are good, you feel good, and you're making progress, sounds like you are operating within the power curve, and that's got to be a good thing! But if you feel like your progress is not what it could be, you might have room to push the envelope. Maybe when you have a rest day scheduled, go a little harder the day prior and see how your readiness score and HRV are affected.
Andy? Any thoughts?
I have a lot more questions than I have theories at this point, but my guess would be that it depends on the training plan. On a daily/moderate program like S&S you would want to stay green and healthy as much as possible, but on a light/med/hard "wavy" program you would want to push into yellow a couple of times per week, which would indicate you appropriately stressed yourself, and then recover.
If your indicators are good, you feel good, and you're making progress, sounds like you are operating within the power curve, and that's got to be a good thing! But if you feel like your progress is not what it could be, you might have room to push the envelope. Maybe when you have a rest day scheduled, go a little harder the day prior and see how your readiness score and HRV are affected.
Andy? Any thoughts?
Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
got the polar H7 yesterday. Great device, great available apps. That is definitely one advantage to be a child of this high-tech-time. It provides data and insights in one training session that are easy to save with one click. While collecting data you can watch on development over time. The layman in me feels a little bit pro...
banzaiengr
Level 6 Valued Member
I realize this thread has been beat to death, but Pavel's response early on intrigued me. I was in hopes that someone with more knowledge than I would get back to it.
Maybe I missed it in S&S and I have my book out on loan so I cannot reference it, but haven't most of us only been focusing on meeting the time goals of 10 get-ups in 10 min. and 100 swings in 5 so that we may then move up to the next bell? To do S&S and meet the talk test or let alone keep our heart rate below 180-age and also meet the time goals to move up would of pushed my improvement (what I thought was improvement) back significantly. This is most likely why when I "thought" I had reached the 32K I started slip sliding backwards. Luckily for me I contacted an SFG who got me on a corrected course.
So, my question is, were others surprised by Pavel's post or did I just miss this information from S&S? I know there have been posts on other threads regarding some who just couldn't do 5 or 6 days per week. May this be the reason? Personally I think this changes things from how many understood the program. Keep the HR around 180-age for the session and push it or do the 5 minute test occasionally to achieve a little glycolytic work.
For the record, after doing S&S with only my eye on the timed goals this makes sense to me. Thanks
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Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
Hi banza,
the last year brought great clarification on this topic. I wrote myself on many occasions about it. I think a great bunch of users looked at the watch to much when starting with it, me included. The ego wants to get satisfied in reaching the standards. I for myself with all the accumulated experiences from others and me, come to the conclusion that (besides proper technique in the moves) the breathing chapter is most overlooked but the most important chapter in the book. When you keep this in mind, the time factor becomes self limiting. Then s&s is 1meter wide and infinitaly deep. Breath is the connection between body and mind. You breathe on the one hand automatically, on the other hand you can watch or focus on your breath, and you can a little bit "manipulate" it, by trying to especially breath out slowly and completely. The resting or "trying" to breath out in a relaxed state is the "hardest" part, maybe not particularly for the body, but for the mind. It is extreme. For the mind. I somewhere said s&s is a WOD. A "workout" of the day, a workout of the decade, for a decade. I am on the sinister and simple program after a lay of for some time since last Saturday. Keeping in mind all the accumulated experiences from many participants, me included. I plan for some weeks to get my further teachings from the beast (the good thing is, my only weighs 47k). I use the hr-monitor and let my hr to go down under 100 bpm, and the swings can up my hr almost up to 150bpm, get ups to 145 bpm (my Maffetone would be 180-38). The three consecutive sessions where great. By now I rested two days on the schedule because of a little bit accumulated fatigue and did some easy rowing. I think I try the next times to rest a little bit more. I give a f.... about how long the sessions take. When swings I "try" to relax standing, when get ups I have the luxury "trying" to relax while laying. Great, horrible, interesting, confusing, tensed, relaxed mind games. If I will "be" sometime "sinister", I don't know. That I, my ego, my body, my mind get transformed in the process, I am sure. I am on s&s, I will lay it aside, I will be coming back to it and lay it down again. In this regard I am my own guinea pig and am a little bit absorbed by it. That is only my opinion which impact it has on me. If Maffetone really fits in here with the program, I don't know. But that it is a helpful tool, I feel. A lot of tinkering here by me and the many people around the world. Puuh, enough said, for today.
the last year brought great clarification on this topic. I wrote myself on many occasions about it. I think a great bunch of users looked at the watch to much when starting with it, me included. The ego wants to get satisfied in reaching the standards. I for myself with all the accumulated experiences from others and me, come to the conclusion that (besides proper technique in the moves) the breathing chapter is most overlooked but the most important chapter in the book. When you keep this in mind, the time factor becomes self limiting. Then s&s is 1meter wide and infinitaly deep. Breath is the connection between body and mind. You breathe on the one hand automatically, on the other hand you can watch or focus on your breath, and you can a little bit "manipulate" it, by trying to especially breath out slowly and completely. The resting or "trying" to breath out in a relaxed state is the "hardest" part, maybe not particularly for the body, but for the mind. It is extreme. For the mind. I somewhere said s&s is a WOD. A "workout" of the day, a workout of the decade, for a decade. I am on the sinister and simple program after a lay of for some time since last Saturday. Keeping in mind all the accumulated experiences from many participants, me included. I plan for some weeks to get my further teachings from the beast (the good thing is, my only weighs 47k). I use the hr-monitor and let my hr to go down under 100 bpm, and the swings can up my hr almost up to 150bpm, get ups to 145 bpm (my Maffetone would be 180-38). The three consecutive sessions where great. By now I rested two days on the schedule because of a little bit accumulated fatigue and did some easy rowing. I think I try the next times to rest a little bit more. I give a f.... about how long the sessions take. When swings I "try" to relax standing, when get ups I have the luxury "trying" to relax while laying. Great, horrible, interesting, confusing, tensed, relaxed mind games. If I will "be" sometime "sinister", I don't know. That I, my ego, my body, my mind get transformed in the process, I am sure. I am on s&s, I will lay it aside, I will be coming back to it and lay it down again. In this regard I am my own guinea pig and am a little bit absorbed by it. That is only my opinion which impact it has on me. If Maffetone really fits in here with the program, I don't know. But that it is a helpful tool, I feel. A lot of tinkering here by me and the many people around the world. Puuh, enough said, for today.
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banzaiengr, the short answer is: stay with a particular weight until you can not only meet the time test but the talk test as well.
Another test - can you immediately switch to nose-breathing after your set and complete the entire recovery period that way? Works better if you don't have anyone to talk to.
All kidding aside, I don't know if this is about the same as the talk test but I prefer it, for whatever reason.
-S-
Another test - can you immediately switch to nose-breathing after your set and complete the entire recovery period that way? Works better if you don't have anyone to talk to.
All kidding aside, I don't know if this is about the same as the talk test but I prefer it, for whatever reason.-S-
Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
In retrospect, I am not surprised by the relative misuse of S&S. After all, one can't move up in weight until one meets the time requirements. Since load increase seems to be most folks' primary goal, keep swinging to a clock until you meet the time goal, correct?
You should skip the goals.
Training for an event, or competition is always different from the event itself: the intensity is usually lower, the distance or time is shorter/less, etc. But, our contemporaries would have you believe otherwise. So, in the current fitness context of boot camps, insane training programs, high-intensity this and that... well, of course you are going to compete (re: try for the S&S goal) every session.
But in the same way that you do not run the marathon until the actual race... do not attempt the time standards of S&S until your "training is complete". This "training" consists of many months, possibly years, of lower intensity swings and get ups, i.e., training to your breath, HR, talk test, etc. No clock, no sense of urgency, no rush. Let the training provoke adaptations in your mind and body, then, and only then, apply those adaptations to the competition: the S&S time goal.
If you never compete, you still have the adaptations.
You should skip the goals.
Training for an event, or competition is always different from the event itself: the intensity is usually lower, the distance or time is shorter/less, etc. But, our contemporaries would have you believe otherwise. So, in the current fitness context of boot camps, insane training programs, high-intensity this and that... well, of course you are going to compete (re: try for the S&S goal) every session.
But in the same way that you do not run the marathon until the actual race... do not attempt the time standards of S&S until your "training is complete". This "training" consists of many months, possibly years, of lower intensity swings and get ups, i.e., training to your breath, HR, talk test, etc. No clock, no sense of urgency, no rush. Let the training provoke adaptations in your mind and body, then, and only then, apply those adaptations to the competition: the S&S time goal.
If you never compete, you still have the adaptations.
Well said, Al - thank you.
-S-
-S-
banzaiengr
Level 6 Valued Member
Thanks gentlemen, all responses well put. I know you three get it, it's those of us like myself who were weaned on HIT that miss this. Glad I got a HR monitor, just wish I could remember who it was that recommended it. ; )
bencrush
Level 5 Valued Member
I definitely understand Al's advice to be patient. But it's a catch-22. People are "lazy" if they don't push the envelope. Those that do push the envelope are often pushing too hard and/or too frequently. Trying to balance between pushing too hard and holding back is nearly impossible for anyone with a specific physical goal.
Ever notice that most of the guys who recommend patience are the guys who have already achieved quite a bit (or all) of the goals they've set for themselves. I'm guilty of that myself when it comes to grip strength and steel bending training. I did not exercise patience and hit most of my goals. But injuries stacked up (from steel bending) because I pushed too hard, too much, too frequently. Easy for me to in hindsight recommend the type of training (patience, prehab, etc.) that would have kept me injury-free. But it would have taken a lot longer to reach my goals. IF I ever reached them with the reduced intensity/frequency training.
Ever notice that most of the guys who recommend patience are the guys who have already achieved quite a bit (or all) of the goals they've set for themselves. I'm guilty of that myself when it comes to grip strength and steel bending training. I did not exercise patience and hit most of my goals. But injuries stacked up (from steel bending) because I pushed too hard, too much, too frequently. Easy for me to in hindsight recommend the type of training (patience, prehab, etc.) that would have kept me injury-free. But it would have taken a lot longer to reach my goals. IF I ever reached them with the reduced intensity/frequency training.
Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
well said, Ben. Patience seems not to be an attribute a human being is born with. When a child sees something it wants to have it almost immediately. Patience is a little bit vexing, nagging and boring. It is an attribute with comes with experiences (mostly the bad ones, but the good ones also), and that takes time. Thus, I come more and more to the conclusion, that the "old" ones sometimes were and are right.
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banzaiengr
Level 6 Valued Member
I understand your perplexity Ben, the more I got into this the more I saw what I thought was a catch 22 myself. In the get-up when you can do 5 right hand and 5 left hand get-ups in 10 minutes you move up. Yet the get-up is a static move which is not to be rushed. Therefore, am I pushing myself or am I rushing? That's where great coaching comes into play. Learn to listen to your body, learn to breath, and learn to find a program that meets your goals. Then one begins fishing for themselves.
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Well said, Carl! Yes, you push yourself by focusing on mastering the movement. Find and apply tension. Attend to every nuance of the muscles and sequences. Practice getting better at some particular aspect of the exercise it every set. Seek grace, fluidity, power, and precise application of strength. Find control, harmony between breathing and movement, correction of every misstep. Maximize your recovery and find agreement between mind and body when ready to go again. Get better every time; increase your skill. You push yourself in ways other than the clock… then, as you really master the movement in your practice, the clock will come to you.
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