Other/Mixed Value of Heart Rate

[Deleted member 5559]

I've been using a heart rate monitor (HRM) for the last few years and have used it as an indicator of my fatigue level. If a training session feels ok but is producing higher heart rate levels, it forces me to make the session even easier than it feels. I've found numerous times that my body is lying to me and sometimes I feel good but perform crappy and other times I feel terrible but perform very well.

I've heard arguments for both following heart rate and ignoring it. The following argument is that it indicates exactly what your body is doing and highlights fatigue that may not be evident by feel. The ignoring argument is that the body needs the work to be at a certain level for adaptation and the heart rate will simply fluctuate to accommodate the variables such as temperature, altitude, fatigue, etc.

Since I've been using a HRM, I very rarely over reach; however, perhaps I'm leaving progress on the table if I were to prioritize feel. If you use or have used a HRM, do you prioritize the heart rate or how you feel?

Edit: This is oriented for steady state endurance training.

 

[offwidth]

I've been in the endurance game a very long time, and I pretty much can go by feel only; and it's almost always in lock-step with HRM readings.

When I am in 'training mode' (for an event) I tend to use the HRM more. Just to be sure...

 

[North Coast Miller]

I generally only use it for higher intensity work where I'm gauging it against RPE. HIIT or metcon type intervals I find it very helpful as I don't trust my subjective impressions and I really want to hit my target HR.

I don't use it for strength sessions.

 

[Anna C]

I've been using a heart rate monitor (HRM) for the last few years and have used it as an indicator of my fatigue level.

I use HR for a lot of things, but never to indicate my fatigue level. Not sure how exactly you might do that.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

Not sure how exactly you might do that.

By that, I mean my heart rate being higher than normal for the same level of effort or having to reduce effort for the same heart rate. For example, maybe normally running 8:00/mile at a heart rate of 160bpm but then some other session when more fatigued having to run slower at 9:00/mile to maintain the 160bpm. My assumption has been that using heart rate would tell me what the correct pace was for my fatigue level or level of readiness.

 

[Tuebor]

Personally, I use a HR monitor for locomotion events only. And to keep track of my average resting HR.

I never track my anaerobic events.

If my average resting heart rate is a little higher so it goes, my weight training is not effected but my locomotion times slow. If it jumps up super high 5+ BPM I take a rest day, or just go for a brisk walk.

This doesn't answer your question but it gives an insight into my utilization. BW 209 RHR54

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I just came across this article by Maffetone.
Fatigue of Cardiac Drift?

I am starting to have a sense of polarity between the training methods of different coaches such as Phil Maffetone and Jack Daniels. I'm not quite sure where each fits in.

 

[Anna C]

By that, I mean my heart rate being higher than normal for the same level of effort or having to reduce effort for the same heart rate. For example, maybe normally running 8:00/mile at a heart rate of 160bpm but then some other session when more fatigued having to run slower at 9:00/mile to maintain the 160bpm. My assumption has been that using heart rate would tell me what the correct pace was for my fatigue level or level of readiness.

OK, good example... but I think HR is affected by too many different things to use it that way. I agree it's affected by fatigue, but then again what is fatigue? Under-recovery, in this case? Sometimes when I am under-recovered, my HR trends LOWER than normal. In which case I have to work harder to hit a target HR. So that would be opposite of what you describe.

I really only use a target HR when I'm doing steady-state cardio, and in this case I match exertion to get the target HR no matter how it feels (unless things are REALLY off that day, in which case I might alter the plan).

As far as fatigue and recovery, I think HRV is a much more useful indicator, but even that is somewhat limited. Resting HR can be useful as @Tuebor describes. The Elite HRV app takes resting HR and HRV together to calculate a "Readiness Score" that I did find useful for a while, but stopped using after I learned its lessons.

 

[Papa Georgio]

If you use or have used a HRM, do you prioritize the heart rate or how you feel?

Neither.

I do not use HRM. Many people successfully use them to optimize the factors in their training to improve their results. I get distracted too easily, and I’m afraid I wouldn’t put the proper focus on my exercise at hand, so I don’t mess around with them.

I do not work out by feel. If I went by feel, I probably wouldn’t do half of the sessions I do now. I’d either wouldn’t have the energy, or I’d be super wired and overextend myself leaving myself too smoked or injured to workout the next day. Some people can make this work, but I’m not one of them.

 

[Tuebor]

“As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.”

Stick to one method or the other, stay with it long enough to glean the pros and cons and then create your own system based on your wants. When in doubt simplify.

Really though most principles of any method are very similar.

I feel that the HR monitor can become obsessive, like a step counter. It's only a tool. It has been very beneficial to my steady state and rekindling of enjoyment with jogging but that's where it ends.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I really only use a target HR when I'm doing steady-state cardio, and in this case I match exertion to get the target HR no matter how it feels (unless things are REALLY off that day, in which case I might alter the plan).

Yes, I have edited the original post to include that this is oriented around steady state endurance training.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I think HR is affected by too many different things to use it that way

After more noodling on this a bit, this is actually the genesis of this question for me. I am finding that I have days when I feel quite good, recovered, etc. but my HR is higher than what I would think but perhaps my hydration is not ideal or the temperature is different, etc. It made me start to question whether it is really the best indicator of the level I should be exerting.

I think HRV is a much more useful indicator, but even that is somewhat limited

I used Elite HRV for quite a while too. I found with somewhat regularity that I would feel good and be yellow or red and other times feel terrible and be green. I tried having different principles I would follow regarding effort reductions if red or yellow. Ultimately, I stopped using it after making some lifestyle changes and reducing the load of all training sessions which made me green so many times in a row that the anomaly of yellow or red wasn't often enough for me to continue using it regularly.

Really though most principles of any method are very similar.

This is where it's tough for me at this point; struggling to see the common principle(s). Perhaps, it's simply that tracking average output at fixed input or fixed output at average input provides a feedback mechanism. That doesn't seem to help my understanding yet of either method at this point though.

 

[Karl]

I use elite hrv as well. I am learning the things that negatively impact my score so not sure I need to use it as much as I do. Big ones being sleep length and quality, hydration, stress, certain foods, alcohol, etc...

I concure that there are times I do not always agree with the reading.

Right or wrong I've used it to navigate my way through the winter blues associated with short day lengths. Also I let it guide me on my second workout of the day lsd run/rucks/walks this time of year. I think it does help me remove my internal ego from training decisions.

I like to quantify things so that is why I'm attracted to the tool. Consumer level hrv has false positives and negatives. I'm ok with that for now.

 

[LoneRider]

I started using a heartrate monitor back in February and have been finding I do run at too high a heartrate (as a healthy 35 year old male my Maffetone number should be 145 BPM, I've hit 150-160 BPM on a couple stretches of runs). Thankfully I force myself to slow down, at times even walk, during some of my distance running events.

I still do speed work, i.e. 60s/120s (60s sprint 120s walk), but I'm working smart. Maybe 20% of the running events I do in a given month are speed/tempo oriented. Most of my other runs and rucks and swims are aimed at aerobic (145 BPM or fewer). I'm finding I feel physically better after long runs when I force myself to work at the lower heart rates.

The book 80/20 Running and several articles here on endurance have been quite helpful in this conscious decision.

For those who started HR training for running/rucking, etc., how long did it take you to work to build a decent aerobic base without dropping strength training (not an option for me due to my line of work)?

 

[Al Ciampa]

This is where it's tough for me at this point; struggling to see the common principle(s).

Brian, judging by the various threads you’ve begun, in many instances you are tying to reinvent the wheel. Trust the processes and then your experience and wisdom will reveal all you need to know.

I use the HR for steady state jogging... every time. Even if I intended to ignore it in the moment.

Many times, you’ll perform better when not initially feeling good because your stress hormones are already elevated. Remember that too much training stress can come with endorphins to protect you from the pain.

 

[North Coast Miller]

After more noodling on this a bit, this is actually the genesis of this question for me. I am finding that I have days when I feel quite good, recovered, etc. but my HR is higher than what I would think but perhaps my hydration is not ideal or the temperature is different, etc. It made me start to question whether it is really the best indicator of the level I should be exerting.

Don't leave out OTC meds, NSAIDs analgesics.

I use the HR for steady state jogging... every time. Even if I intended to ignore it in the moment.

This is a solid attitude. If you are intending to use for all sorts of health mapping, you will need a large dataset for yourself. At some point it might be overthinking things but it never hurts to have the data.

For myself, using a 20+ yr old Polar I'm not about to sit there and take notes, I use it to benchmark some efforts and then go back and check vs whatever pace or loading changes I've made. If I had one that recorded to my phone I'd probably use it all the time.

I tried using it with strength training but the values didn't seem predictive at all. It did demonstrate that many maximal strength exertions didn't push HR anywhere near maximal, and recovering HR to a given zone mightn't mean you're ready to go again.

As I understand it, heart rate variability can be very useful, but again that involves larger datasets and using it even at rest.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

judging by the various threads you’ve begun, in many instances you are tying to reinvent the wheel.

Yep, its on purpose like reading a book a second, third...nth time. I learn something new everytime - like the rest of your post; I've never learned that before.

Many times, you’ll perform better when not initially feeling good because your stress hormones are already elevated. Remember that too much training stress can come with endorphins to protect you from the pain.

If I only learn one thing everytime I reinvent the wheel, it's worth it for me. Without reinventing the wheel we wouldn't have pneumatic tires and would be rolling around on rocks.

I just appreciate all those that entertain my redundancy. Sometimes just hearing somethimg stated differently helps me understand it better.

 

[Al Ciampa]

Yep, its on purpose like reading a book a second, third...nth time. I learn something new everytime - like the rest of your post; I've never learned that before.

If I only learn one thing everytime I reinvent the wheel, it's worth it for me. Without reinventing the wheel we wouldn't have pneumatic tires and would be rolling around on rocks.

I just appreciate all those that entertain my redundancy. Sometimes just hearing somethimg stated differently helps me understand it better.

I admire your honest self-assessment process.

 

[vegpedlr]

The body never lies.

The mind, however, can muddy the waters. Perception combined with goals, planning, execution, that’s a lot going on. I’ve trained with HR and HRV for years and have experienced the things you describe. I use HR to gauge intensity so that I am training the zone I want. I use HRV as a second opinion on my recovery. When doing endurance work, it’s important to stick to one system. Doesn’t matter which, they all work. But mixing them up can screw things up. If you pick Maffetone, then you stick to MAF and do not go over, whether it’s hot, or cold, or humid, or whatever. HR is the sum total of stress, not just training, and the system is based on staying below that threshold and training frequently. When it’s time, then you include some anaerobic training, then shift back to aerobic.

Daniels is pace based. A HRM is beneficial to make sure that your easy days truly are easy. Polarized training is the same way. HR will help make sure the easy days stay easy, the hard days are hard enough, and the dreaded no man’s land is avoided.

Regardless of what system you use, I highly recommend listening to Ronda Collier’s, of Sweetbeat, interviews.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I just appreciate all those that entertain my redundancy. Sometimes just hearing somethimg stated differently helps me understand it better.

“Understanding is a delaying tactic…,” as one novelist put it. “Do you want to understand how to swim, or do you want to jump in and start swimming? Only people who are afraid of water want to understand. Other people jump in and get wet.”
― Pavel Tsatsouline, The Russian Kettlebell Challenge: Xtreme Fitness for Hard Living Comrades