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Other/Mixed Verifiably True Ancient Greek and Roman Exercises

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Well, what's more important - paying your bills or living long and healthily???

Sadly, there are too many situations where you can't have one without the other.

However, what I tried to imply was that strength is more esteemed in the cultures where it is necessary for working ones job. The more a society becomes estranged from physical life, the more strength is dismissed.
 
Sadly, there are too many situations where you can't have one without the other.

However, what I tried to imply was that strength is more esteemed in the cultures where it is necessary for working ones job. The more a society becomes estranged from physical life, the more strength is dismissed.
Yes, that's the problem. But what they don't think about is how they have to get strong in order to be healthy even though strength is needed for nothing in their daily lives at all. That's true in my case. I need no strength at all for anything in my career or home life, but I need it for health.
 
Hello,

I am more or less in the same situation. I have a desk job, etc... Nonetheless, even if it can sounds a bit weird or ridiculous, I appreciate the fact of "being ready" whatever happens. Sometimes, it helps. A simple example: moving furnitures, being physically and mentally prepared to an agression. Both of them occurred to me. Then I became kinda "prepper".

Money is of course an item to consider. I can not speak for other countries but here in France, I can buy almost everything raw and organic, and it does not cost much more than anything else. Of course, I could save a few, but comparing to what I get from quality food, this is a very worthy investment.

I think strength is linked to way of life too. For instance, Indian wrestlers take good care of what they eat and listen to their body: they eat in function of what they need. Even if they eat simple things, in simple plates, top quality food can make all the difference. To a certain extent, we are what we eat.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Hello,

I am more or less in the same situation. I have a desk job, etc... Nonetheless, even if it can sounds a bit weird or ridiculous, I appreciate the fact of "being ready" whatever happens. Sometimes, it helps. A simple example: moving furnitures, being physically and mentally prepared to an agression. Both of them occurred to me. Then I became kinda "prepper".

Money is of course an item to consider. I can not speak for other countries but here in France, I can buy almost everything raw and organic, and it does not cost much more than anything else. Of course, I could save a few, but comparing to what I get from quality food, this is a very worthy investment.

I think strength is linked to way of life too. For instance, Indian wrestlers take good care of what they eat and listen to their body: they eat in function of what they need. Even if they eat simple things, in simple plates, top quality food can make all the difference. To a certain extent, we are what we eat.

Kind regards,

Pet'
I have to say visiting France a couple of years ago that it sure seemed like a paradise on earth - no bugs, mild weather not too hot or cold, lots of land and space, logical, serious people and a fascinating history and culture.
 
Hello,

@Kozushi
As you mentioned, culture and / or education may also be an element worth considering. Why are we practicing ? For instance, Spartan used to train for war since they were child because it was their culture, their raison d'être. I grew up while being aware of my environment "just in case". Basically, I anticipate a lot.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Hello,

@Kozushi
When I practice, I always look for different things, such as: strength, power, endurance / cardio / conditioning, and flexibility /mobility / coordination, while avoiding exhaustion. To reach these goals, I can use different tools: mostly bodyweight and bells.

The more mininalistic I can go with good results, the better.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
This isn't exactly ancient, but I recalled reading some documented feats of strength during the Middle Ages. This is from Contamine's War in the Middle Ages re one Marshall Boucicaut:

He executed a somersault fully armed except for his bascinet and wearing a mail coat.

Item, he leapt onto a courser without planting his foot in the stirrup, fully armed.

Item, with a strong man mounted on a great horse he leapt from the ground onto his shoulders by taking his sleeve in one hand and without any other hold.

Item, placing one hand on the saddle pommel of a great courser and the other near the ears, seizing the mane he leapt from the ground through his arms and over the horse.

Item, two walls an arms length apart and as high as a tower, he could climb to the top without slipping on the ascent or descent simply using the strength of his arms and legs and without any other assistance.

Item, wearing a coat of mail he ascended the underside of a great ladder placed against a wall to the top without using his feet, simply jumping with both hands from rung to rung and then, taking off his coat, he did this with one hand until he was unable to ascend any higher.
 
This isn't exactly ancient, but I recalled reading some documented feats of strength during the Middle Ages. This is from Contamine's War in the Middle Ages re one Marshall Boucicaut:

He executed a somersault fully armed except for his bascinet and wearing a mail coat.

Item, he leapt onto a courser without planting his foot in the stirrup, fully armed.

Item, with a strong man mounted on a great horse he leapt from the ground onto his shoulders by taking his sleeve in one hand and without any other hold.

Item, placing one hand on the saddle pommel of a great courser and the other near the ears, seizing the mane he leapt from the ground through his arms and over the horse.

Item, two walls an arms length apart and as high as a tower, he could climb to the top without slipping on the ascent or descent simply using the strength of his arms and legs and without any other assistance.

Item, wearing a coat of mail he ascended the underside of a great ladder placed against a wall to the top without using his feet, simply jumping with both hands from rung to rung and then, taking off his coat, he did this with one hand until he was unable to ascend any higher.
The first half of this resembles the "vault" or "pommel horse" training the Julius Caesar had his troops do in large sheds all winter to stay ready for fighting cavalry or to get onto and off of horses easily when under the stresses of battle.

Another thing often forgotten about regarding ancient exercise was the "dancing" which isn't what you think it is - it's in armour and done with the mimicking of fighting moves. It resembled Native American war dances and there is also probably a cultural link to Kung Fu katas and similar.
 
The ancients divided exercises into 1. strong 2. fast and 3 violent (a mixture of strong and fast).
For instance here is the same exercise treated in each of the three ways:

1. The overhead "military" press - strong - using a dumbbell or a rock
2. Punching your hands straight up in the air as fast and as hard as possible holding NOTHING in your hand - fast
3. Taking a light to moderately heavy dumbbell and punching straight up in the air with it as fast and as hard as possible. - violent

The ancients believed ALL THREE kinds of exercise were important. This is one lesson for us from the ancients. However, they saw #3, the "violent" exercises as the best proof of real world strength and applicability. It comes out of the first two kinds of strength training. Here is another set of related exercises:

1. Holding a fairly heavy weight or wearing a heavy backpack, walk uphill. - strong
2. Run uphill carrying nothing at all as fast as you can. - fast
3. Carrying a moderately heavy weight or wearing something like armour or a moderately heavy backpack RUN uphill as fast as you can! - violent

Here is another:

1. Wrestling - strong - you have to physically manipulate another person's bodyweight.
2. Boxing - fast - you don't lift anything at all, you move as fast and as hard as you can!
3. Pankration - violent - a mixture of the strength of wrestling with the speed of boxing.
 
Hello,

@Kozushi

+1 !

I still do heavy 1H swings because I love this exercise so much. Nonetheless, since I walk one hour a day with 10kg (or 12 since today) backpack, I no longer need them to maintain my conditioning.

Kind regards,

Pet'
Long distance hiking ("marching") with a heavy backpack was considered a major part of strength training for the Roman legions. I read this in Vegetius - a late Roman military manual. They did a major "heavy hike" like this once every month to keep strong.
 
Hey @Kozushi . I found this post really fascinating. Im not sure if you are still on the forum but wanted to ask you about the chin ups. It is fair to say chin ups were included as the "violent" exercise right? Im just confused cause you mentioned "isometrics" In one of your first comments. But it would be really nice to hear from someone who was actually transcribing it. Btw, is "de sanitate tuenta" the greek title? Thanks!
 
Long distance hiking ("marching") with a heavy backpack was considered a major part of strength training for the Roman legions. I read this in Vegetius - a late Roman military manual. They did a major "heavy hike" like this once every month to keep strong.
Can you point me out in which section of the manual? Thank you.
 
Can you point me out in which section of the manual? Thank you.
I think the passage in the manual is the following:

To accustom soldiers to carry burdens is also an essential part of discipline. Recruits in particular should be obliged frequently to carry a weight of not less than sixty pounds (exclusive of their arms), and to march with it in the ranks. This is because on difficult expeditions they often find themselves under the necessity of carrying their provisions as well as their arms. Nor will they find this troublesome when inured to it by custom, which makes everything easy. Our troops in ancient times were a proof of this, and Virgil has remarked it in the following lines:

The Roman soldiers, bred in war's alarms,
Bending with unjust loads and heavy arms,
Cheerful their toilsome marches undergo,
And pitch their sudden camp before the foe.


The manual can be found here: The Military Institutions of the Romans (De Re Militari) and the passage is under the heading "and to carry burdens".
 
I think the passage in the manual is the following:

To accustom soldiers to carry burdens is also an essential part of discipline. Recruits in particular should be obliged frequently to carry a weight of not less than sixty pounds (exclusive of their arms), and to march with it in the ranks. This is because on difficult expeditions they often find themselves under the necessity of carrying their provisions as well as their arms. Nor will they find this troublesome when inured to it by custom, which makes everything easy. Our troops in ancient times were a proof of this, and Virgil has remarked it in the following lines:

The Roman soldiers, bred in war's alarms,
Bending with unjust loads and heavy arms,
Cheerful their toilsome marches undergo,
And pitch their sudden camp before the foe.


The manual can be found here: The Military Institutions of the Romans (De Re Militari) and the passage is under the heading "and to carry burdens".
Much appreciated, thank you!
 
Long distance hiking ("marching") with a heavy backpack was considered a major part of strength training for the Roman legions. I read this in Vegetius - a late Roman military manual. They did a major "heavy hike" like this once every month to keep strong.

Hello @Kozushi sorry to write again. I thought you may have not see my question. How do we know chin ups were in the "strong" exercises if they are not mentioned directly? Maybe they are in some different part of the Galen's book?
 
If there is one "secret" of the Ancients when it comes to exercise it is: do it with someone else!!! Don't exercise alone if you can help it!!!

That's a paradigm shift from our current thinking.

I was reading a novel by Chris Cameron where he went into detail about how he thought they might have trained (since he is a professor of Military History I always found his books very interesting from a lot of perspectives). What struck me most is how much of a social activity it was for them. They would often compete against each other and then hang out. Much different from our world, where we do it in our garage and even if we do it in a gym we have little but small conversations with people. Sometimes, I think we totally messed some of these things up in the modern world and it explains a lot of the problems with men's health and mental health in our era.
 
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Not Roman or Greek, but regarding pushups (and their seeming non-existence in those two ancient physical cultures), there is a supposedly ancient Indian yogic practice called Angamardana (anga- limb, mardana - to kill, as in final victory (or mastery over someone) can only be achieved by killing them, therefore, Angamardana - gaining mastery over the limbs) which includes pushups among other bodyweight exercises. It's tied closely to Kalaripayattu, which is thought to be one of the world's oldest martial arts.
 
What’s interesting about the Greeks is that in Homers “Odyssey” allusions were being made to the younger generation being weaker than the soldiers that fought at Troy. Odysseus for example rips a wheel off of a chariot to use as a discus and they very test Penelope has for the suitors involves them being able to string Odysseus bow. The theme of the next generation being a bit softer seems to be a constant across time and geography. In the waning days of the Ottoman Empire the old guard would lament that the youngsters couldn’t string a bow and Samurai began lamenting the newer generation and it’s recounted in the Hagakure. As for training the Greeks were mad grapplers and rowers. As for the Romans my understanding about them was that it was superior tactics that enabled them to defeat Goths and Gauls that were all bigger than them. Wasn’t there some research lately done that showed Gladiators were actually quite fat to add to the spectacle?
 
What’s interesting about the Greeks is that in Homers “Odyssey” allusions were being made to the younger generation being weaker than the soldiers that fought at Troy. Odysseus for example rips a wheel off of a chariot to use as a discus and they very test Penelope has for the suitors involves them being able to string Odysseus bow. The theme of the next generation being a bit softer seems to be a constant across time and geography. In the waning days of the Ottoman Empire the old guard would lament that the youngsters couldn’t string a bow and Samurai began lamenting the newer generation and it’s recounted in the Hagakure. As for training the Greeks were mad grapplers and rowers. As for the Romans my understanding about them was that it was superior tactics that enabled them to defeat Goths and Gauls that were all bigger than them. Wasn’t there some research lately done that showed Gladiators were actually quite fat to add to the spectacle?
That's what we call a topos - in this case glorifying your past to serve as an example for future generations.
As for the gladiators, that newsline was based on the gladiator cemetary in Ephesos. However, it appears the anthropologists have jumped to conclusions there: the only evidence they had from the bones is that the gladiators were apparently eating mostly plants (you can tell that from the C to N ratio), and they concluded that they must have been fat because of it (I suspect they were both Atkins followers, or it simply made for a good headline). No other signs of obesity were present, at least none were published. There is also Galenos who criticized the predominantly plant-based diet, since he thought it would not lead to ideal muscle development as seen in the Greek athletes. This was again interpreted quite bravely as "purposefully getting fat to be protected against stabs", and I can't help but wonder whether these people know anything about nutrition, exercise physiology or the use of bladed weapons at all.
There have also been other attempts to interpret the gladiator's diet as "vegetarian" or even "almost vegan", both of which miss the point in my opinion.
The main thing to consider, in my opinion, is that fighting with weapons mainly requires TONS of drilling, therefore a huge volume. While strength plays a role in the actual encounter (especially with the big scutum), weight classes are less relevant because of the different armaturae and the fact that the arena is much bigger than a boxing ring. That means that training for it basically was predominantly an endurance sport, probably 6-10 hours per day. And if you look at the diet of endurance athletes, you'll find that the vast majority of them eats mostly plants (they'll usually still end up with enough protein, simply because 6000-8.000 kcal of ANYTHING this side of pure oil or sugar tends to have enough protein for most intents and purposes; just 5000 calories from barley and beans (2:1) will give you over 200 g of protein per day, and most likely it was served at least with a bit of cheese, bacon and the occasional egg, since all surviving recipies from the time call for that). Tell them to change their diet "because of science", and they'll refuse, simply because what they do works for them. The number of people who get fat on such a routine, on the other hand, is quite small. The only examples I can think of - kushti wrestlers, Sumotori, Bökh competitors (basically everyone who wrestles without a weight class) - all emphasize one or several protein sources in addition to carbs.
These anthropologists also seem unaware that the gladiators were basically eating the same food as the Roman legionnaires, so I assume those must have been fat as well...

PS: For reference, I teach Archaeology at the university of Zurich these days, and I used to do gladiator stuntwork (for the lack of a better word) for a certain gentleman called Marcus Junkelmann for nine years (in addition to competing in Freestyle and Greco wrestling, hence the interest in kushti etc.).
 
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